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grandmaster, cut and paste faster! · by Rafi Kam
Well ok, Steve “DJ Flash” Juon took the bait. The old-school hip-hop webmaster replied yesterday to my thread on why ohhla sucks.
Flash seems annoyed that I hadn’t emailed in corrections first. I’ve heard from Keter and others that people who have sent in corrections have waited and then not seen their changes occur. This is besides the point though. The post wasn’t about a few incorrect lyrics but the whole system being flawed.
In an email to us Flash wrote:
Next time you’re going to write a blog that something on OHHLA sucks, perhaps you’d think about contacting me to see if I’d fix it first? It’s not like I’d post a blog that says "Oh Word sucks" just because I found a few typos or grammatical errors without at least giving you the chance to rectify them first. Incidentally when you’ve got a database of over 30K songs, you try keeping all of them accurate or even owning every piece of vinyl or CD they’re from to even know if they’re accurately typed or not. It’s hard enough just giving these demanding visitors what they want, even when it’s crap like Yung Joc. Do you think I enjoy typing or making Yung Joc lyrics accurate? HELLLLLLLLLLL NO.
Flash, this isn’t about a few typos. This is about one man acting as the gatekeeper on over 30,000 text files representing the largest collection of hip-hop lyrics anywhere. Because of the user submission process, probably at least half of these files have at least some error.
Do I think you enjoy making Young Joc lyrics accurate? I don’t know man. I think you must enjoy being the sole controller or you’d already be making moves to incorporate the wiki or database app suggestions.
If you’re up on your Greek mythology then you know the story of Sisyphus who was condemned to keep pushing a stone up a large hill. Everytime he neared the top the stone would roll down the hill and he would have to start over. I keep waiting for one of these punchline-obsessed coke-rappers to say “I’m forever pushing the rock like Sisyphus” but it hasn’t happened so far… But at least I get to bring him up here.
The reason I won’t send in lyrics submissions is the same reason many others won’t. We don’t want any part of pushing your stone up that hill. Make it easy for people to actually fix the problem and you’ll suddenly have a ton of helpers.
You mention this post from your blog as an illustration of why you won’t wikify. Of the poorly formatted lyrics you say: “It’s not the solution to the problem, it’s an even BIGGER problem.”
But with numerous editors it doesn’t have to be solely your problem. Not to mention you can take advantage of the other functionality that an app would give you .. user discussions, other types of song information, search capability.
Give up the rock. Adapt. Work smarter not harder. I’m telling you for your own sake.
Comments for "grandmaster, cut and paste faster!"
Hip-hop appreciates what Flash is doing and has been doing for years on OHHLA.
Flash should read “Wisdom of Crowds”. It may save him.
— Hashim Jun 21, 12:29 PM
I still don’t buy the idea that Wikifying everything is the solution to every problem. So far I’ve seen a lot of proof that the pendulum swings both ways – when you wikify you get a lot of great user edited content, but you also get a lot of vandalism of that content that has to be constantly reverted and fixed. I don’t see how that wouldn’t result on me spending even MORE time working on OHHLA, not less. And somebody please tell Keter to get better hosting, that site is inaccessible.
— DJ Flash Jun 21, 02:51 PM
Flash, wikis don’t solve everything. Only some things.
Peep: lyricswiki.com
— Hashim Jun 21, 03:03 PM
I’ve peeped it – that’s part of what inspired my blog entry in the first place (sadly Rafi it wasn’t this site because I didn’t peep your message until my birthday yesterday). BTW the analogy that I’m Sisyphus is interesting but if we’re digging in ancient Greek history you might want to say I’m Icarus and I’ve got “hubris” instead – a false pride in OHHLA that by trying to do it all myself will result in my own downfall. Maybe so – I’ve accepted that I am a little proud of the hard work I’ve done over the last 15 years, and it’s hard to imagine just turning it over to the public and saying “I don’t care any more you guys edit this yourselves.” But if you’re going to quote from my e-mails (not that we had established this precedent) allow me to quote a little of the last exchange with Rafi:
“I don’t want OHHLA to be the “anybody can post some bullshit they typed in five minutes” website – I want it to stand for something EVEN IF occasionally it stands for the wrong thing. I think there’s something to be said for having a standard – or if you disagree maybe you should wikify OhWord.com and let any user write an article at any time. You’ve obviously picked and chosen who can author and contribute content to it though – as a result you’ve got a quality website that I enjoy visiting and reading. I don’t think you’re quite as socialistic or communistic about the internet as you espouse on that entry – obviously you believe in quality authors and quality editing too. When you wikify OhWord I’ll believe you’re serious I should wikify OHHLA, but in the meantime if you have a problem with a lyric on there just e-mail me and say why. It’s not like I won’t respond and/or fix it for you.”
As for the suggestion I’ve ever knowingly ignored a correction that someone has submitted, that’s entirely false. At times I have consulted other experts on the corrections and they’ve failed to respond in a timely manner. At other times I’ve let the corrections accumulate until there’s a whole batch to do instead of editing the database one at a time. And sometimes I just plain don’t agree with a correction because I hear it differently. I don’t ignore e-mails though. Quoting again from my message to Rafi:
“The funny thing is you didn’t even have to wait six weeks – that’s what vexes me about your blog entry. I read and respond to 99% of the e-mail about OHHLA, RapReviews and AngryMarks that I get.”
I guess the grandmaster IS cutting and pasting faster now. ;)
— DJ Flash Jun 21, 04:02 PM
Flash
He’s not suggesting that you Wiki your blog or the reviews. Ohword is not a massive lyrics database. Millions of people seeking lyrics from rap songs do not look to Ohword, they look to OHHLA, then they recoil in disgust at the ridiculous junior high mistakes and the slow, ineffecient revision process.
I have a lot of respect for the fact that you want control so that assholes won’t hijack the process. But I think you underestimate how serious and geeky a lot of rap fans are about lyrics. I was right there with them 10 years ago, when I was combing the archives and sending in dozens of corrections for no reason other than I wanted people to have the right lyrics (you accepted most, but denied some too, even though I was correct). I do appreciate that you make corrections, but it’s impossible for you to continue by yourself.
I know fans, scholars, journalists and many others who love what OHHLA represents, but have serious issues with it in practice. You have a chance to improve upon what you’re doing. Don’t let the fear of a few possible knuckleheads spoil a great idea.
— eauhellzgnaw Jun 22, 04:03 AM
“Geeky about rap lyrics” actually sums up this issue quite nicely. Sure there are people who are geeky about it, but who here can raise their hand and say they are obsessed with it to the point of perhaps having something wrong in their head? I know I can, I’m not sure anyone else would even WANT to admit to such a thing if true. If I could find somebody that mental who I could hire to do it for free or work for minimal scrilla, I would. More on that in a second though.
If there’s a front line in the war over lyric accuracy, I’m the one standing there taking the hits (pun definitely intended). People still want to debate “Electric Relaxation” even to the present day. I can’t see any good coming from wikifying that song, it will go back and forth forever between “preset plan” and “please settle down” with no end in sight. And nobody has yet settled the issue to my satisfaction of how an open-ended database wouldn’t result in even more ridiculous lyrics – some unintentionally, some intentionally, and some even maliciously (G-Unit and G-UNot fans at endless war editing each other’s shit).
I’d like for the scholars with complaints to holla – everybody says they’re out there but they’re not saying it to me. If this discussion proves anything about the issue, it’s that I’m available and open to discuss it even on a blog website. When I DO hear from the scholars (including college professors) they’re always saying “thanks for the resource” and “I’m citing it in my course materials if you don’t object” and so forth. I’ve yet to have one say “this is a joke and totally useless, you sir should go fornicate a long wooden rod.”
I said I’d come back to the “I’m crazy and nobody else is nuts enough to do this issue,” so here it is in a nutshell. MAYBE (and I’m not seriously proposing at present that I do this, it’s just up for discussion) if some people out there demonstrated they were as crazy about hip-hop lyrics as I am, I would do a quasi-wikification where in the general public would not be making edits, but handpicked hip-hop heads would have accounts with the broad power to make changes as needed. I’ve seen other Wiki sites take this approach from Lucha Libre to Homestar Runner – they do want contributors but they want ones who are qualified and knowledgable about the subject and not just blowing smoke while either doing nothing or making alredy sound articles worse with misinformation.
In closing I’ve yet to see any discussion or thought given to the fact an unapologetically wikified lyrics site is open to worthless submissions. Wikipedia has a standing policy of deleting articles that aren’t noteworthy, but in truth articles are created faster than any amount of dedicated editors can request a deletion for. Some survive a day, some survive months, and some never get removed at all. Now when I get a lyrics from MC Farty Pants in Bend Lick, Indiana it’s pretty obvious he’s not signed to a record deal even on an indie label, but I will take the time to look it up on AllMusic, TowerRecords, Google et cetera just to make sure. If it turns out the guy is legit and not a joke (say MC Paul Barman) it’s added, but if it’s not I scrap it. So what happens if you wikify OHHLA? You open the floodgates. MC Farty Pants becomes equal to Rakim and Chuck D just because he says so.
— DJ Flash Jun 22, 04:59 AM
Very fair response.
And on Paul Barman, dude is probably the worst rapper I’ve ever heard, but he put out real live records (and he somehow got Prince Paul to waste respectable beats on him). I don’t see why you wouldn’t include his lyrics. It doesn’t seem practical or fair to exclude people like him just because he sucks and his whole gimmick is a joke.
— eauhellzgnaw Jun 22, 10:19 AM
I don’t know if Wiki solves the problem, but I think we can all agree the current method is not working.
Remember though – a wiki doesn’t need to be completely open. Perhaps you job Flash can become moderating hundreds of registered editors, instead of thousands of lyrics pages.
Many wikis also allow discussions to happen behind the scenes on the page. That could be the place where general users come to offer corrections and interpretations.
— Hashim Jun 22, 06:25 PM
To me Hashim that’s the best sounding proposal so far. There’s still technical issues about wikifying I’d be concerned with (who’s going to rewrite the thousands of links on artist and soundtrack pages – not to mention what would they point to when nothing is in a fixed location any more) but the idea on the table is definitely a step in the right direction.
— DJ Flash Jun 22, 06:33 PM
Incidentally I wanted to add that at this point I’m moving beyond the discussion stage – I’m in fact hoping to start overhauling the site this summer more or less along the outlines already agreed on in this thread. I just need to hire somebody to get down on it… a cool cat with a lot of programmer expertise… say one that has a really popular blog I enjoy visiting… now who could I get like that ;)
— DJ Flash Jun 22, 07:22 PM
Here’s what I was thinking.
You could have a beta wiki, which started out just mirroring what’s there now.
Make it completely open, but you can start out with what you’ve managed to build up over the last 10 years.
You wouldn’t replace the old version, and all you’d need to do to try it out would be to mirror your current site in wiki format – and I’m sure someone’s written a program to facilitate conversion.
If it doesn’t work, then scrap it.
— David Jun 22, 10:18 PM
Has this been solved? Because I love OHHLA (Googling it is how I ended up here) and I have corrections I’ve been waiting to make for years.
In other words, the last I checked, the revisions process was too inconvenient for me to want to correct what I know is wrong and I have right … and yet the database is so official I won’t go anywhere else for lyrics (and the couple times I have, like for Hiero’s 7 Sixes, they were jacked from OHHLA — you could tell because they had the exact same mistakes)
I realize this post is a year and a half old, but if it’s been resolved, e-mail me. I’m a longtime user who’d love to help.
— TiVo Mar 6, 08:26 AM