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White people to Hiphop: we quit. · by Sach O
Meet your new fans, same as your old fans.
Being white is a definite social advantage in North-America 99% of the time: it’s good for mortgages, getting MTV and rock radio play and hailing a cab in NYC. But it’s definitely not an easy way to build a Hiphop fan base. With RJD2’s much debated defection from Hiphop making the rounds, I find myself wondering if the days of the white hip-hop artist are numbered. From Anticon down, it seems that every other former white-rap affiliated musician seems to be repositioning himself in the marketplace as some sort of electronica-rock hybrid. Sure those guys had one foot in that genre to begin with but the rate at which samplers are getting dropped and guitars picked up is still remarkable. The music isn’t substantially different though it often embraces a wider (read: whiter) set of influences, but these guys seem desperate to break away from the underground rap association in order to latch onto the more stable (and hip) indie-rock crowd. Now the cynic in me wants to view this as a purely exploitative move: first these poseurs try to take over rap and when they can’t do that, they run scurrying back to the warm embrace of rock, but I honestly don’t think that’s the case. Rather, it seems with a shrinking (and perennially un-cool) underground rap market rejecting their aesthetic in favor of Jim Jones, these guys have decided to just shrug their shoulders and move on to a more receptive crowd.
It was all so good a few years ago. White rappers had their own media outlet, Interscope was looking for the next Eminem and with the garage rock revival failing to do much, the world seemed ready for a white rap movement of epic proportions. Instead, HHI went bust and their cult members suddenly realized black was beautiful, no one managed to capture Eminem’s success and white people rediscovered their love for the guitar and tight jeans. Today things are grim and the death knell has to be the absurd double standards in rock magazines: while a pretentious dance-punk power-trio can get props for over-intellectualizing their craft, the cool kids now prefer their rap Ying-Yang style. Meanwhile actual Hiphop media and listeners never cared about the honquistadors in the first place. It’s hard enough to live up to Pete Rock’s achievements without getting knocked for your skin color from the get go and the sudden shift towards thuggishness has literally left these guys out in the cold. It’s definitely easier to be embraced by nerds than to be heckled as nerd-rap so why bother?
This leaves the remaining bunch of white rappers, usually the ones closest to pure Hiphop, with questionable options. Production seems like a safe bet, as Scott Storch, DJ Shadow and a fair amount of other successful Caucasian beatmakers have proved that tracks are colorblind. Slug and Sage Francis probably need not worry either since their established fanbases now transcend genres certifying their niches. But Apathy, Ill Bill, Necro, Hot Karl, Dose One, Vinnie Paz, Cage, El-P, Aesop Rock and any other remaining white rappers, regardless of their talent, have got to wonder if its still worth it.
Edan can just make a rock record and I’ll still buy it though. He’s ill like that.
Comments for "White people to Hiphop: we quit."
vinnie paz is a spic
— Ramon Sep 16, 03:48 PM
Thoughtful post. However, don’t interpret the following comments as me being opposed to progressive measures, but I don’t think its necessarily a bad thing that some white rappers have elected to change their audience. I mean every person with a mic and ambition should not be, musically-speaking, allowed to rap. The White rapper standard is very high – Eminem – and that will always be hard to exceed, let alone, reach.
RD
— RD Sep 16, 04:57 PM
be on the look out for my new honquistadors album in 2007
— Gentle Jones Sep 16, 07:43 PM
vinnie paz is white. stoupe is puerto rican.
— higg Sep 17, 12:20 AM
It’s too bad that people have to have all these preconceived notions about white people not being able to rock the mic. Granted, they should be held to a higher standard (MC Paul Barman should be both tarred and feathered obviously) but a lot of white guys have something to contribute to the art form and its sad that they aren’t embraced by certain people. I’d be ashamed of white people if they shunned black people doing rock n roll (and yes…I know that black people helped invent it but white people did their share too).
Like you, I don’t view RJD2’s move as being cynical. I think the man is an artist taking his musical directions in the way he sees fit. However, I for one would like to see the genre become a bit more inclusive and integrated, (this goes not just for hip-hop but all aspects of society).
Nice and thoughtful post. And I’m with you on Edan…don’t know if you’ve seen the dude live, but he’s absurdly dope.
— Jeff Sep 17, 02:53 AM
I just wanted to add on the record that I don’t think its black people either that shun white guys rapping…I happen to think most of the bias comes from white guys themself…from personal experiences and my white friends who have MC’d the most prejudice I’ve seen them face has 99 percent of the time been from fellow crackers.
— Jeff Sep 17, 03:07 AM
Cage’s last album appealed to the rock crowd, but I think he did a good job of still appealing to his fanbase.
Dudes are getting older. I think that’s why the artiists and fans are moving on. What you listened to in your college dorm ir different than what you want to hear now as you drive to your 9-5.
— Hashim Sep 17, 03:28 AM
I’d bet that a few black “underground” rappers would jump ship to the greener pastures of indie rock if they could; their skin color, however, prevents them from doing so.
1. The tight-trousered, thick rimmed glasses folks are simply uninterested in “safe” black rappers. Like the average YBT, they’ve bought into the notion that criminality/ignorance = black authenticity*
2. Nobody cared about Everlast’s shift. And nobody would have cared even in 1992. For black rappers, though, the cost of abandoning hip hop is pretty high. Black rappers can say that hip hop sucks and that they don’t listen to it anymore—they’ve been saying it since I was rockin a box fade. But for them to say that they are going to make soul or rock or electronic music instead of hip hop is unwise, just in terms of marketing.
Look at Common and Andre 3000. The former never even tried to pass his “experimentation” off as anything but hip hop, and look how that turned out for him. Dre, on the other hand, is pretty clear that he’s trying to do more than rap, and the rap media—rap bloggers, for instance—are killing him for it. Granted, both of them have been responsible for some pretty horrible, pretentious shit over the last few years, but I don’t think it’s the quality that’s irking rap fans; I think it’s the fact that these two once great MCs have bought into the notion that rap as a form is inherently inferior to other, more established genres, and they are pandering to this pop/rock mindset instead of accepting (and trying to improve) rap on its own terms.
*The exceptions are black rappers with bizarre gimmicks (multiple personae, strange costumes), those from outside the states, or those who never had any black fans to begin with.
— eauhellzgnaw Sep 17, 04:41 AM
Granted I have been listening to Cuban Linx for the last two days because of a f*cked up a$$ break up.
Anyhoo.
The title of the post is pure genuis.
Sacha allways been hella FREASH.
Thats all I gotta say.
— Don't F*ck with her Sep 17, 11:58 AM
edan is a god.
— julien Sep 17, 01:17 PM
Isn’t Paul Wall white though??? That dude is NEVER leaving the game. The game need him.
— Green Hornet Sep 17, 01:18 PM
yeah they said that about me when I tried to do some rock music…..
— llcoolj Sep 17, 04:37 PM
The alternate title to this post was “Crackers are in Danger” but I used the c-word last week.
And Paul Wall gets a pass until that Blink182 collabo drops.
Good points all around. I’d respond to the serious stuff but I pretty much agree with everything…so props.
— Sach Sep 17, 04:58 PM
did rjd2 (the recording artist, not the ocassional beat maker) ever make hip hop in the first place? it was marketed as hip hop, mainly because his label, his methodology and the circles he traveled in, but aesthetically it’s not that far removed from, say, moby. had circumstances been different we wouldn’t even be having this discussion and they’d have been selling rjd2 cds in starbucks from day one.
this seems more like a change in marketing and instrumentation (stetsasonic still made hip hop) than a change in style.
it’s not like paul wall joined death cab for cutie or something. or the eyedea thing.
— noz Sep 17, 05:11 PM
It depends on your definition of Hiphop.
RJD2 was the attention grabbing headline, but the other acts I linked to are all rappers who switched. You can consider them non-hiphop in the first place (which is pretty much why I think they’re re-branding themselve) but I’ve personally felt that the genre/label was large enough to accomodate everyone from the Ninjatune instrumentalists to Hyphy kids to Def Jux rappers to bounce DJs. RJ’s instrumental stuff may not sound much like Illmatic but neither does half the stuff on Direct Effect that claims the genre as its own. Trying to narrow what is and is not allowed to call itself hiphop doesn’t strike me as beneficial for anyone.
— Sach Sep 17, 06:25 PM
my point isn’t to say that this is hip hop and this is not. but rather that the line between the two is largely defined by image, not substance. and how an artist personally identifies themselves.
had rjd2 been signed to xl from day one and had he not been down with blueprint or whoever, but made essentially the same two albums otherwise, would he have even shown up on our hip hop radar?
i’m not really familiar enough with those anticon guys to comment.
— noz Sep 17, 08:39 PM
feeling this one, sach. i was kind of disappointed when i heard that last buck65 album, him pretty much abandoning the mic to become a blues singer. to each his own, but it just bothered me. hell, he came up with one of my all-time favorite lines (“i’m the least jiggy and the most no frills”)!
white people!
— khal Sep 17, 09:22 PM
“the line between the two is largely defined by image, not substance.”
Impossible to disagree with that. Statement is money.
And I’d say it’s actually a pretty substantial problem but that’s another day.
— Sach Sep 17, 11:19 PM
It doesn’t matter. By 2018 hip hop will be as relevant and pervasive as jazz was from 1978 – now.
— Jay B Sep 17, 11:30 PM
Are DMC, Andre 3000, Q-Tip, Common and Cee-Lo white ?
— SLurg Sep 19, 07:19 AM
Isn’t that kind of like discussing about steroids in baseball and sarcastically asking what sport Lance Armstrong excels in?
— Sach Sep 19, 10:35 AM
“did rjd2 (the recording artist, not the ocassional beat maker) ever make hip hop in the first place? it was marketed as hip hop, mainly because his label, his methodology and the circles he traveled in, but aesthetically it’s not that far removed from, say, moby.”
I think his methodology and his circles matter, though, in trying to define this idea of hip-hop. I always considered DJ Shadow hip-hop, because I think he had roots in hip-hop, he knew hip-hop, he rolled w/ Solesides, and he considered himself hip-hop. Maybe his output didn’t always sound exactly like “hip-hop,” but that’s where I categorized him. I don’t know enough about RJD2 to call it on him specifically.
“I’ve personally felt that the genre/label was large enough to accomodate everyone from the Ninjatune instrumentalists to Hyphy kids to Def Jux rappers to bounce DJs. RJ’s instrumental stuff may not sound much like Illmatic but neither does half the stuff on Direct Effect that claims the genre as its own. Trying to narrow what is and is not allowed to call itself hiphop doesn’t strike me as beneficial for anyone.”
Well said.
These message boxes are too small, can you make them bigger?
— nesta Sep 21, 09:32 PM
nesta,
re: the message box
yeah, we’ll be be making some design tweaks around the site soon and part of that will be changing commenting. bigger message boxes make sense so that will probably be part of the change. thanks for the suggestion.
— Rafi Sep 21, 09:45 PM
Jim Jones is WAAAYYYYY cooler than Sole… It’s really hard to take any rapper from Vermont all that seriously… Dip Set, Dip Set!!!!
— Piff Puff Sep 28, 03:43 AM
Shows what happens when I sleep on OhWord for a minute – I come back and it’s even more buckwild than ever. Great article, highly thought-provoking.
— DJ Flash Sep 28, 05:42 AM
LOL @ this entire post. I found RJ’s interview with pitchfork to be a bit condescending in its tone but..I’m not in his head, to know what his real intentions are or aren’t. I think artists should be free to express themselves and do whatever they feel. However, the hip hop audience hasn’t been too forgiving to folks who just wanna do ‘them’ for lack of a better word.
— esbee Oct 5, 02:58 AM
Thought-provoking article. White Hip-Hop is sort of non-existent commercially right now. I find it somewhat perplexing that when a Beastie Boys album comes out Hot97 or any rap stations don’t even think about playing it. Can you only be a successful white rapper if you are cosigned by an already successful black rapper? I stumbled upon this post while thinking of how I’m going to try to promote my album when it is finished. It’s Hip Hop and me and my two partners in rhyme are white. I mean were probably just going to hit bars and stuff and just take it one step at a time but it’s kind of weird to know that Hip Hop doesn’t really want our “kind” of rap. Whether you’re white or black unless you’re cosigned by someone it seems like it’s really hard to get in the game. Hmmm…just thinking outloud.
— Colin C. Oct 5, 04:21 AM
products of the environment.
— *midnightheory* Oct 5, 01:22 PM
If you think hip hop, or “white” hip hop, is dying you’re sorely mistaken. I’m the first to admit that I’m a fairly newcomer to hip hop. I grew up in the rural stix of Canada. I grew up on classic rock. I now live in Toronto and am fed on a constant diet of hip hop. It’s there if you want to find it. Those who are hip to the game (pardon the pun) aren’t in it for gross sums of money (though it would be nice), they’re in it for the love of music. Case in point? The kids keep doing it. Gym Class Heroes, aeon grey, Pigeon John, K-OS, et. al are still rockin it.
What’s annoying is that this is about Black and White and hip hop has no colour aside from the place of its birth, which we can all claim in our own lives anyways.
Hip Hop in any form isn’t dead. It’s changing with the game and staying a step ahead. The fact that corporate shills can’t get a handle on it and market it to gobs of brainless teenagers isn’t a sign of its failure, it’s a sign of its success.
The Ying Yang twins, along with 50 Cent and the usual suspects are “white hip hop” (ie. music for the musically inept or lazy). Those who want good music with meaning and depth will seek it out.
— earth Oct 5, 09:46 PM
^^^
Uhhh. Pigeon John is biracial, which means he’s not white by American standards (one drop rule, baby!).
I know it makes everyone, especially people who aren’t black, feel good to think that hip hop (or blues or reggae) knows no color, but it’s simply not true. Some forms, due to practice (NOT nature), are more strongly tied to certain groups. That’s not to say that other groups can’t perform or enjoy them, it’s just being honest.
— eauhellzgnaw Oct 6, 05:05 AM
I know Pigeon John is biracial. K-OS is black. I’m just trying to make the point that hip hop is far from dead. That’s like saying Punk is dead. Music movements don’t die. They stop getting press.
— earth Oct 6, 02:42 PM
Music movements do die, but even if they are still living, it doesn’t mean that they are healthy.
Except for production and commercial viability (pre file-sharing), it’s hard to see how hip hop is thriving. The vast majority of the underground material is as cliche-ridden and weak as the popular stuff…and is frequently much worse. All of the good rappers are in their 30s and started in the late 80s or early 90s. Doesn’t bode well at well.
— eauhellzgnaw Oct 7, 09:35 AM
THIS IS FOR THE HIGG GUY SAYING BLACKS HELPED INVENT ROCK N ROLL,R U OKAY?? BLACKS INVENTED ROCK N ROLL WITH NO HELP FROM THE WHITES GO AND READ THE HISTORY OF ROCK N ROLL,EVEN WHITE MUSIC LIKE COUNTRY MUSIC EVOLVED FROM SOUL OR SOME SORT OF BLACK MUSIC,WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW ABOUT WHITE FOLKS JUMPING SHIP IS WHAT HAPENED WHEN ROK N ROLL EVOLVED TO ROCK THEY ARE TRYIN TO MAKE ANOTHER GENRE TO CALL THEIRS WITH SIMILARITY TO HIPHOP PEACE
— SIJ DA DON Oct 18, 01:43 AM
Music doens’t die.. sometimes it even thrives on life support… I don’t see the point of who started who.. who makes what.. who likes what.. whites blacks mexicans aliens.. life is life.. existence is existence… we could probably survive better if we stopped dwelling on our difference
— Aeon Grey Nov 9, 11:22 AM
They r a number of black indie rockers; TV on the Radio, Block Party, Yellow Card, The Plain White T’s. Rap is just different, because rap comes outta of a culture that supports it and helps it grow. Most white people don’t live in black communities where everybody raps. Go to a school and find the best rapper in a suburban school, and he will be terrible. Everybody was an MC, could throw done a beat, or DJ at my school. But my suburban friends they all played guitar or something. It’s just peoples environments. It would be real interesting if a white rapper came out of the suburbs and could spit. It’s bound to happen. Record companies would make a shit ton of money. As the last poster said, it taint matter. Music is music. The least we can hope for is that the best rappers are most successful and shitty music like Lil Jon, Mike Jones, and other 1 dimensional rappers, who care more about their style and swagger than the music, flop hard. But remember folks, we live in America.
— Drummer510 Nov 11, 08:46 PM
MIXTAPE MANIA LOVE BLACK MUSIC?? LOVE HIP HOP AND R&B??
GET IT HERE FIRST!
www.DaBizness.org
— Da Exclusivez Jan 20, 04:55 PM
I can’t say that I agree cuz if you think about it, the majority of all hip hop fans are white and thats a fact.I thinikn that the problem more lays in that now a days music are dumbed down cuz people won’t listen to it if its not. That goes for all music genres not only hip hop. Its amazing how dumb music is now. I would say that the cause for it is that we live in a society where most people have low attention span. Sad but true :/
— Mohammed May 18, 11:45 AM
I think that saying whites support a large component of hip hop sales is a bit ignorant.
Yes, the do buy lil’ wayne, Jay-Z, TI, and the like. However, these rappers cater to that “booty, money, and baller” living that whites seem to associate with minorities and hip-hop culture.
Growing up in Los Angeles, underground artists (mos def, j dilla, q-tip,pretty much the soulquarians) and old school rap (tupac, biggie, bone thugz) dominated the scene (and still do to most urban fans) because their rhymes were honest and reflected the demographic struggles we face (in terms of gang violence, the degradation of respect and culture, and the onslaught of the whites). Rappers like TI, Wayne, and their cohorts all talk about stuff like expensive vodka and patron which, let’s be honest here, every white suburban kid can relate to.
A white hip-hop fan is more likely to worship lil’ wayne and ciara and never even listen (or even hear of) mos def or talib kweli.
So I think that you made a minor mistake in attempting to lasso all artists who rap, under one genre.
Groups like 303H (or however they’re spelled) sing about lying chicks and punk bitches. It’s infused with electro pop (an invaluable indie ingredient) and that makes it more relevant to the white market. I consider them commercial because of the content of their lyrics.
Also, even for those white rappers who can spit a rhyme, linguistics also has a strong effect on how seriously they are taken. It’s funny hearing white kids say words like, “yo!” and “baller”, not because they’re fake, but because their accents make them sound like something akin to Malibu’s Most Wanted. I think the accentual differences also hold up that barrier.
Nice article though.
— michelle Sep 1, 03:05 AM
ok first of all yes eminem is a very good rap artist but im just saying that being black theres only about 2 good rappers who are white soo yea and also im doing an innovation of hip hop and rap music history fair project and no famous white people have come up but no im not racest cause my best friend is white so in my opinion white people should listen to there music and for once let black people get there props for something and thatn is hip hop and rap music!
— nunya Jan 1, 11:16 AM