Rather see the above links in your inbox or feed reader?
Subscribe to our Links for hand-picked items from around the web
Say It Ain't So Ghost, Say It Ain't So… · by Brandon Soderberg
When I first read it on Nahright, I recalled the vague rumblings of ghostwriting accusations a while back and quickly dismissed it, but as I considered it more, it kinda fucked me up. It was like when I was little and Superman was killed by Doomsday and Bane broke Batman’s back. What’s happening to my heroes?!
Recently, my 8 year-old, white-trash cousin cried for days when Chris Benoit went Herr R. on his family. My little sister sat around with her mind-blown in her own fucking zone when Sammy Sosa was involved in a steroids scandal. My racist grandfather probably felt the same way when Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth’s record, I don’t know. This peeking-in of reality crushing your idealized image of your favorites dissipates a little quicker when you’re not a stupid little kid (or racist) and you get a hold of yourself. Rap blogs helped too.
Metal Lungies broke it down pretty succinctly, with a discussion of Superb and Ghostface’s differing styles while not totally ruling the rumor out. Drew of the Smoking Section told us why we shouldn’t care about ghostwriting (Oh but we do Drew, we do!) and there are others, all equally level-headed.
So Ghostface, just about every blogger’s favorite rapper, being accused of rap’s worst sin and pretty much everyone responds in an even-handed fashion? Wow. More evidence that listeners of rap can govern themselves and don’t need help from Paula Zahn and church billboards…
So, I was able to work myself through the great Ghostface/Ghostwriting tragedy of ’07. I got real and thought about what really matters more than ethics: quality. A good album, by any means necessary is more important than the fascist rap rules ingrained into our minds. Ghostwriter or not, Ghost owns ‘Supreme Clientele’. The album is injected with an unmatched level of fun, anger, and insight. If Ghostface didn’t write lines like “the Devil planted fear inside the black babies/Fifty cent sodas in the hood, they goin’ crazy” he delivers them as if he did. When Ghost breaks into the sing-song “Tupac, Biggie, ohhh” in ‘Ghost Deini’, the emotion and delivery matter as much, if not more than the words. So, who cares? I do, I just can’t help it.
‘Supreme Clientele’ is Ghost’s marked departure from the early Wu-Tang albums, group and solo. Frequent OhWord commenter Eauhellzgnaw, on that ‘Metal Lungies’post, used this as possible evidence that ‘Supreme Clientele’ could have been ghostwritten: “For one, even though Ghost has always been kind of stream of consciousness with his rhymes, the weirdest lyrics on S.C. are pretty out there. There’s no question that S.C. Ghost is different lyrically from Ghost on other albums.” The post-‘Supreme’ albums are injected with lyrical and conceptual weirdness but it is more contained (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing). Perhaps it took a ghostwriter to take Ghost to that “next-level” that now makes him the most dependable MC out there. I can get over that.
Ghostface’s chaotic personal and musical life leading up to ‘Supreme Clientele’ could begin to explain the need to “resort” to a ghostwriter. The Wu’s disintegration was right on-the-heels of their dominance. The canceled tour with Rage, numerous ODB stunts, and the not-bad-in-retrospect-but-disappointing-at-the-time follow-up solo albums (‘Tical 2000’,‘Beneath the Surface’,‘Nigga Please’, ‘Immobilarity’) all presented the Wu as quickly in decline. Perhaps Ghostface took it upon himself, by any means necessary, to pull the Wu out of that rut.
Ghostface was also fresh out of jail when he made ‘Supreme Clientele’. Getting out of jail, having to simultaneously make a solo album and sort of revive the group, may have lead him to seek-out some kind of guarantee that his album would be a classic. Getting some help from a ghostwriter to guarantee that success makes a lot of sense. I’d also add that the incestuous nature of the Wu’s earlier work undoubtedly lead to a lot of ideas being shared. Maybe I’m idealizing, turning the violation into a noble gesture, but I don’t think it’s far-off.
It would not surprise me if Ghost continues to use those around him to influence or aid in the writing of his style. In this interview, Ghost refers to hanging-out with younger rappers (like Theodore Unit) to stay fresh. Staying fresh could easily mean getting some lyrical help from his crew. A rap conservative can see it as some violation of the rap code but it’s pretty much what any artist in any other medium does to stay relevant.
Something that has bothered me for a while is ‘Supreme Clientele’s striking resemblance to MF Doom’s ‘Operation Doomsday’. I should admit, I never even listened to ‘Operation Doomsday’ until May 4th 2007 (that’s how much I hate real rap) because I always perceived Doom as something of a Ghostface rip-off for hipsters (before hipsters fell in-love with Ghostface). There are obvious differences and regardless, Doom owes a ton to the Wu, but the 60s Marvel cartoon audio samples, the out-of-control drunken flow, the weirdo-lyricism that Ghostface would adopt on ‘Supreme Clientele’ are all on ‘Doomsday’. I’ve always been suspicious of Ghost’s claims he never heard of Doom until recently, as he does here. Again, Eauhellzgnaw, who points out a similar use of convenient evasion when it comes to ‘Supreme Clientele’s lyrics: “…when you read Ghost’s interviews about the meaning of the bizarre lyrics on S.C., he’s more evasive than he is normally.”
In that PopMatters interview from April ’06, Ghostface dismisses the writing of an autobiography, but in September, Harper Collins sued him for failing to deliver the manuscript. I’m not trying to “expose” Ghostface, everyone’s evasive in interviews but he does have a tendency to be cryptic or out-right false and it often seems to come out of an attempt to keep-up the mythology of Tony Starks.
As for the ghostwriting accusations, if it isn’t just typical G-Unit talking out of their ass, it’s more like Ghostface was caught on a bullshit technicality. The ghostwriting appears to be more like a collaboration; might this style of ghostwriting be considered “assistance” or something? Even if somehow, nothing on ‘Supreme Clientele’ was written by Ghost, that’s not the same as Pharoahe Monch writing for Diddy and Diddy just rapping it in some lame approximation of Monch’s style. That kind of hiring of ghostwriters comes out of general laziness and/or lack of talent, Ghost’s, if it’s even true, seems a little more respectable, even pragmatic.
Comments for "Say It Ain't So Ghost, Say It Ain't So…"
One thing to think about in Yayo’s part in this “controversy” is that Supreme Clientele was the record that contained the “Clyde Smith” skit which is the infamous skit where Raekwon disses 50 Cent in that computerized voice. Judging by how insanely loyal, Yayo is to Curtis, I doubt he even personally believes that Ghost didn’t write Supreme Clientele and if anything its more of a chance of Yayo to prove his undying “loyalty” is to his lord, master, and meal ticket.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there is still alot of unspoken bad blood between the crews. On one hand, G-Unit (like Dipset) would love the crown to be the #1 undisputed hip hop collective and to a lot of people that still belongs to the Wu-Tang and #2 there also have been infamous (if unsubstantiated) rumors in which Ghost apparently threw 50 down some steps when they met in the How To Robe era. I doubt the Wu and G-Unit have any love at all. As for Superb, I highly doubt it. He might’ve tossed Ghost a few lines here and there but as for writing Supreme Clientele in the whole c’mon now. Even Diddy has multiple ghostwriters on his records.— DocZeus Jul 17, 05:05 PM
I don’t know if there’s a wide enough gap between Doomsday and Clientele to support your claims of Ghost cribbing from Doom. I can’t find a specific release date for Doomsday, but i remember it coming out around the fall of ’99. SC dropped Feb 8, 2000, though “Apollo Kids” was getting burn the fall before, iirc.
More likely it was the other way around. I don’t think we’d have Doom (or late period KMD) if it weren’t for the Wu.
— noz Jul 17, 05:14 PM
Noz-
Yeah, I was just throwing that out, since I couldn’t find any info on it. As I said, Doom took a lot from the Wu but I was curious if it were the other way around-
In your post which I linked, you referenced the earlier Fondle’Em singles from Doom, how early are they?
Again, not trying to hold my point, it was more like a question, but for me, hearing ‘Op. Doomsday’ so recently, the similarities were jarring.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 17, 05:20 PM
MF Grimm talks about Doom and that Doom thought not much of the Wu back in the days yet he’s hanging with them now. I’m not sure this was in an interview or some MIC diss track. Still I’m 100% positive he said it. I would throw that Doom theory out the window.
As for that Ghostwritting claim in general I only start to care if there some proof. Right now I’m under the impression there rumors started to hurt someone for whatever reason.
— Cruds Jul 17, 06:04 PM
You didn’t get RHS’ memo about Supreme being full of shit?
The Doom and Ghost albums are somewhat similar in tone, but lyrically, OD is much more linear. Plus, had Ghost even heard of the masked version of Doom before Doom blew up in hipster circles?
— eauhellzgnaw Jul 17, 06:37 PM
The MF Grimm reference in “Book of Daniel” is :
Doing songs with RZA
That’s funny shit
I remember you told me
That he bit Tick, Tick…
You said Ghost was whack
You didn’t like his style
If you wanted to, you could use the lines to fuel theories of ghost and the Wu biting off doom. Apparently Doom thinks they did. I don’t.
— green hornet Jul 17, 10:13 PM
Ghostface “not writing” Supreme Clientele > 50 Cent busted lipsyncing on the BET Awards > 50’s career after he got shot
— P-Matik Jul 17, 10:52 PM
If Yayo said it, it HAS to be true…give me a break. This is literally one of the village idiots talking out of his ass. How many classics has he even been a part of?
Ghost being “evasive” in an interview isn’t anything new. Half the time Ghost barely ever makes sense in an interview or just plain at all…peep the shorts he did for MTV2 for some examples.
And if all else fails, Ghost should just smack the sh!t out of Yayo for not bringing him a banana Nutriment.
— enigmatik Jul 18, 12:46 AM
“There’s no question that S.C. Ghost is different lyrically from Ghost on other albums.”
I’d thought that was because Ghost was high/drunk as shit during the making of this.
— The Ghost of Eazy E Jul 18, 12:52 AM
Pretty sure he was dusted during 36 Chambers.
— David Jul 18, 02:21 AM
I’m not your white trash cousin, but I cried when I heard that Chris Benoit was dead. Three hours later when I found out he murdered his family I was sorry I ever met the man and shook his hand.
— DJ Flash Jul 18, 03:12 AM
Any statement Yayo makes…
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...doesn’t matter.
— coqui Jul 18, 03:47 AM
Hard to believe that Yayo’s mouth flapping got the internets buzzing this hard. I think DocZeus hit the nail on the head in that first comment.
— J to the AAP Jul 18, 04:55 AM
interesting piece (and big up for linkin that metallungies dip – hadn’t seen that!)... but i dunno. i mean why would ghostface want to make a classic Wu album that sounded nothing like Wu albums before it? none of the others followed suit in terms of the sound or the admittedly bugged-out lyrics.
i do know that ghost, for a while, was an alcoholic and super weed-head. could that have contributed to the either noticeable tangent he went on, or the need for a ghostwriter (which is a claim i’m still not seeing – ghost saying shit like “i’m the black boy george” in a fucked up mindstate is one thing… a nigga actually writing that down for ghost to say? suspect…)?
who knows.
— khal Jul 18, 09:29 AM
this one hurts, deep… if it’s true.
why’s everyone trying to nail ghost to the wall?
have you listened to the superb interview? in the cell talking shit. if he’s such a great writer (SC) than why doesn’t he drop even a single line that could prove it in one swift cut?
yayo’s a joke…
— Just Jul 18, 09:30 AM
I find it pretty hard to believe, if only because i have always thought Superb’s verses on SC were garbage. The lines MetalLungies quotes, “If you don’t bring me some muthafuckin’ Cognac, I’ll kill you! I can’t feel you!” always makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
http://i13.tinypic.com/4p2avrr.gif
— StupidFresh Jul 18, 09:53 AM
about the similarities between operation doomsday and supreme clientele :
dont you think its more because doom and ghost have both listened to and been influenced by kool keith/ultramagnetic? keith was the originator of the bugged out rhymes, psuedonyms and the costumes in hiphop.
and keith got that from george clinton.
— KQ Jul 18, 10:47 AM
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, DOUCHEBAGS, SUPERB DID NOT WRITE ANY OF GHOST
S VERSES. Are you neurotic blog-goons that fucking stupid? Superb’s style is nothing like Ghost’s in complexity or strangeness, I’ve heard dozens of unreleased tracks he’s recorded,and heard him freestyle and rehearse verses countless times at best he’s a 6th rate Masta Killah.Stop fanning the flames of this to draw attention to your uninspired, digressive, whigger-come-lately bullshit, dunce.
— R.H.S. Jul 18, 11:27 AM
RHS-
The guy who wrote ‘Local Color: Revisited’ is calling someone else digressive? You gotta air-out.
My post is obviously a consideration of the possibility and nothing more. How many times do I say stuff like “if it happened at all”...
— brandonsoderberg Jul 18, 11:33 AM
I can’t beleive we as wu fans ( past, present or both) are even dignifying what Tony Yayo of all people is saying. I didn’t even pay his comments any mind, and i suggest no one else take Yayos attempt at being relevent seriously either i mean come on, i’m mad that i’m even typing this dudes name for any reason.
— MJW0808 Jul 18, 11:33 AM
I really enjoyed your commentary and I have to say that this takes the crown as the most definitive post on the subject. I was crushed when I heard Fony Yayo’s claims and felt even worse after hearing the Superb phonecall. Then I felt better when I really thought about it. Why would anyone really believe “50 cent’s yes man/toy soldier”, or “a bitter rapper (with no albums), unhappy with the state of his career”?
Ghostface is my favorite artist ever, so of course I was disappointed to hear something like this. My first reaction was not to believe it. I’m not sure if you believe it or not, but you did a good job of presenting possible scenarios why these claims may not be so farfetched. After reading this post, I am willing to concede that using a ghostwriter/or lyrics written by another rapper, is NOT a terrible thing…especially if it could produce a gem like “Supreme Clientele.” (sidebar: I didn’t know Pharoahe Monch ghost wrote for Diddy).
But I’ll never believe that Superb wrote the whole thing. I think Superb contributed lyrics and offered some creative input here and there, but that’s not “All him” as he claims. Don’t get me wrong, his appearance definitely enhances Supreme Clientele (ghost deini) but that album is ALL Ghostface! Supreme Clientele is his masterpiece, and I don’t think that can be taken away from him….without some concrete proof. And so far, there isn’t any. Just a whole lot of speculation…
— Mindy Marin Jul 18, 11:50 AM
“The guy who wrote ‘Local Color: Revisited’ is calling someone else digressive? You gotta air-out.”
Salted!
— StupidFresh Jul 18, 12:40 PM
That claim is pretty absurd to me. You can clearly see Ghost’s progression from Cuban Linx to Ironman to Wu-Tang Forever to Supreme Clientele. That style didn’t suddenly pop up, it was develloped over time with Ghost getting increasingly abstract.
Ghost going to Africa and writing a whole bunch of crazy shit and recording it on dust back in NY makes more sense.
— Sach Jul 18, 12:54 PM
Did the Rza use a manual razor or an electric circa 6 feet deep? Did ODB smoke crack out of tin foil, a crushed soda can or an apple when he made Buttercup with Rhymefest? Was Killah Priest reading Ecclesiastes or Leviticus when he wrote his verses for The Last Shall be First? Was Gza reading Us Weekly or People when he wrote Fame?
Seriously though, am I alone in the opinion that nigga please never was and never will be a dissapointment? I know its a completly different feel than Return but in some ways I prefer it.
— Abe Beame Jul 18, 01:23 PM
“The guy who wrote ‘Local Color: Revisited’ is calling someone else digressive? You gotta air-out.”
Jokes is on YOU, son, TOny Yayo just informed me that Superb actually ghostwrites my blog posts yo!!!
— R.H.S. Jul 18, 01:51 PM
Still salted!
— brandonsoderberg Jul 18, 01:58 PM
If you listen to the Superb jail interview when he talks about Ghost stealing his lyrics, he doesn’t actually say Ghost stole his lyrics. Listen to what he says, he mentions Ghost stealing his “words” and his “flows” but never outright says his verses and never names any songs. When you see other ghostwriting claims from people like 50 (On the Game album) he named tracks and didn’t just say he wrote the whole album. You do make a good case here, and I gota check out the other blogs you mention, but in the end Ghost truly does own Supreme Clientle. It’s his by all means.
— Incilin Jul 18, 03:43 PM
This reminds me a lot of Sparks attempting to air out ROC on Hot 97 recently. He claimed he’d written a lot of things for Jay-Z, including the Rick James lyrics used for the hook on “Give It To Me.” Smart rappers work around other rappers. Remember all those cats tryin’ to get money out of Lauryn after her album blew the roof off the charts? A lot of classic albums have been created out of a true collaboration between the emcee and a few artists around them who may or may not receive proper credit.
It’s usually ALL good until the money goes sour, or a career goes down the toilet, or somebody winds up in jail and nobody visits them. Whatever the case may be, Superb didn’t write Supreme Clientele. That’s an absurd statement. Superb is a decent b-team Wu-Tang affiliate, but he’ll never be anything more than that. He’s certainly not capable of crafting an album of Supreme Clientele caliber (not that RZA and family would lace him with those types of beats either).
That said, you can’t completely discount the claims either. My guess is Superb HELPED on the album. He may have done a hook or two, he may have even started a song as his own and Ghost said “Nah, chill son, that’s gotta be on MY album.” That’s the way it works when you’re a weed carrier. Ghost is the only reason we even know who Superb is.
And I don’t buy the whole Ghost sounds different on his other albums argument either. He’s different on EVERY album. Ironman sure don’t sound anything like Fishscale. Ghost’s slang on Only Built 4 Cuban Linx isn’t anything like it is on Pretty Toney. He’s an artist who switches his style up on every release, and THAT’s why he’s still relevant some 14 years after he hit the scene. So until cats come forward sayin’ they wrote Pretty Toney or they wrote Ironman or they wrote his shit on Cuban Linx… I’m not buyin’ it.
— B. Ware tha Siniq Jul 18, 04:14 PM
interesting piece…
I’m mired in the blogging minority when in comes to GFK, because:
A) I don’t think he saved the Wu, in fact hes not even top 5 in the WTC in my opinion (RZA, GZA, ODB, INS, Rae… then Ghost). and…
B) I think ‘Fishscale’ was at most the 3rd best album of 2006.
(Blaq Poet & Vakill are getting slept on)
Despited not being fully on board with Ghost Deini web movement, the only thing I object to in this very thoughtful and well written article is this passage: “I always perceived Doom as something of a Ghostface rip-off for hipsters (before hipsters fell in-love with Ghostface)”
Whoa. Not only did KMD drop a full length 2 years before ’36 chambers’ but Zev Love X was featured on 3rd bass’s Gas Face in 1989!
just my 2 cents.Maybe someone needs to write an piece on how MF Doom saved the Wu. I mean if anyones style biting its not Daniel Dumile. He pioneered the crazy stream of conscience rap thing… way before he blew up the hipster scene with west cost producers and viacom promotion.
— eyse Jul 18, 08:21 PM
It’s not like I find Yayo or Superb credible. The only reason I even considered their claims is because Ghost has never produced another song like “One” for instance. His other “out there” joints either are conventionally structured or make some kind of sense. He was on some other shit for most of SC.
How in holy hell did Doom save Wu? He wasn’t even Doom until years after the Wu had made a huge impact.
— eauhellzgnaw Jul 18, 10:07 PM
ghost as alot of out there songs the first one that was totally out there was cobra clutch. but even before that his verse on triumph and 4th chamber are pretty out there. i doubt supreb was around during that time. if anything this has made me go back and listen to s.c. some more. i love that album as much as i love illmatic. it brings back good memories of simpler times for me. when me and my cousin use to collect wu records like there was no tomorrow
— DEFRAMON Jul 18, 11:32 PM
As I said in my post, I’m talking out of my ass on Doom, etc. but it seems to be that Doom took a lot from the Wu and perhaps (PERHAPS), Ghost took a little from him.
Zev Lov X and MF Doom are not really the same. KMD being around as eary as 1989 doesn’t make Doom’s Wu-isms less true.
Especially on the hipster-baiting stuff, Doom did and has continued to seek out a certain non-rap audience. I don’t think my feelings on the dude are really that far-off other than ‘Op. Doomsday’ not being hipster-baiting trash but a really good album..
I also didn’t intend to misrepresent Eau’s opinion. He can do a fine job defending himself but my quoting of him makes it seem like he’s fronting some sort of Ghost/Ghostwriting parade and not just, you know, being smart and real about it.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 19, 12:23 PM
LOL@ hipster-baiting.
“YO THESE NEGROES MENTIONED SOMETHING I IRONICALLY PRETEND TO LIKE ... DAT MUST MEAN THEY ARE VYING FOR MAH ATTENTION”
Suburban Cognitive Dissonance?
— R.H.S. Jul 19, 04:11 PM
Hmm…
The thing is, Doom is as ironic as the hipsters. So much of Doom’s persona has slowly, almost completely focused on “Hey, remember Saturday morning cartoons??” At this point, he isn’t that different from Gnarls Barkley or something…
— brandonsoderberg Jul 19, 04:26 PM
^Right because in the KMD days he wasn’t referencing cartoons or pop culture. At all. And the only possible motivation for dropping such allusions is to placate Williamsburg transplants from Michigan donning girl-pants. Yeah.
— R.H.S. Jul 19, 04:34 PM
You’re reaching funboy. Wu Tang reference the same shit but other that certain parts of ‘Fishscale’ (‘Underwater’) it doesn’t feel forced. What were once allusions have become cutesy references in the world of Doom. It’s more than just pop-culture references…
I know you’re a self-important, contrarian prick but even you would have to admit that say…literally rapping WITH CARTOON CHARACTERS is a little fishy.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 19, 04:51 PM
I guess Ernie and Bert arent exactly cartoon characters but still, its not like this shit is new, I dont get what youre trying to say. Comes off as a bit defensive.
— Abe Beame Jul 19, 06:23 PM
Remember when Rafi said:
“The sexual tension in this thread is so thick, it was just offered the cover of King magazine.”?
— StupidFresh Jul 19, 07:10 PM
Abe, leave the kid alone, he’ll write a 65,000 word treatise on how unfair it is to call him out for not having actually listened to the old KMD material, then or now. Then the guy from that uber-femme hip hop marketing blog will rush to his defense and we will all lose sight of the bigger picture: actually LISTENING to rap music every once ina while.
— R.H.S. Jul 19, 10:44 PM
Come on fam….it’s Tony yoyo …...i can’t take him serious….thats crazy like Wu-Tang Clan VS. G-Unit
— Stage 2 Jul 19, 11:00 PM
There’s this Dutch Wu-Tang site written in English that seems to think it is assuredly so. Though as far as I can tell they don’t really add anything concrete above the gossip but they do have some interview links….
In this post they claim that aside from Superb writing SC, Cappa wrote OB4CL.
I didn’t want to have to listen to an entire 42 minute interview of Cappadonna even if the Jamaican accent was amusing. Fortunately 6 minutes in he says he never actually ghost-wrote anything but that his style was influential on the Wu.
This other post of theirs links to the Superb interview where the claim originates and puts up as proof the fact that Ghostface recycles a lousy Superb verse near the end of Good Times 2.
Yes, you heard me… that’s their smoking gun. A lousy verse in an obscure remake of an obscure post-SC song – near the end.
For the record, site also asserts that GZA wrote 80% of Protect Ya Neck
Gotta love when there’s percentages involved.
Isn’t his long-ass verse like 60% of the song anyway?
— Rafi Jul 19, 11:18 PM
Remember when Rafi said:
“The sexual tension in this thread is so thick, it was just offered the cover of King magazine.”?
— StupidFresh Jul 19, 07:10 PM
Yeah, that was awesome.
— Rafi Jul 19, 11:21 PM
RHS, I know you’re the token angry black man of OhWord but this is ridiculous.
First, your comments belie your intelligence. Once again, the entry was an attempt at an even-handed consideration of ghostwriting. Nothing I said is definitive.
Second, I don’t really expect angry, half-formed comments from anyone who reads OhWord but from someone who writes for it, seems extra weird. I’d have no problem with disagreement but you could have presented it in something resembling a civil manner. “W[h]igger”? That doesn’t make any sense.
Third, while I would have no way to deny accusations of being verbose or pretentious etc. it really makes no sense coming from the guy who writes abstracty journal entries for the site. I like your posts, I think I’ve commented on it, I’ve maybe even told you in an OhWord chat. Probably the one where you said it was “Very white” of me to think it was weak that Just Blaze was such a hater to the lame-as-fuck white rappers.
The point being, you don’t really have any room in the “Digressive” or pretension critique to talk.
Fourth, I’m not a kid. I’m probably around your age. You graduate from Hampton University in 08 according to Facebook. I won’t even get into your invocations of suburbanism while you attend a PRIVATE black college.
Only in the world of blogging would you be hardbody.
Fifth, the only thing more annoying than bloggers are bloggers/commenters who complain about bloggers. Really, its ridiculous.
Sixth, I know my rap shit. I do. I was obviously being pejorative when I said I hate real rap…baiting knee-jerks like yourself.
It is absurd that you and others are responding as if critiques of Doom for baiting hipsters is so crazy. I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted or at least addressed. I could easily find numerous blog posts that discuss it.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 19, 11:36 PM
Rafi,
Operation Doomsday came out in 99. I remember The Source or Blaze had an article on Doom speaking on the loss of Subroc and the changing of his style. This was most def early to mid 99. As for Wu influencing late KMD, not a chance. That album was recorded in 92. Subroc died in 93. If you go back and check the lyrics on black bastards and even some of mr. hood you will see doom has basically been rocking this style for a minute. As for the singles Fondle Em put out the first joint Dead Bent was in 97.
And now to the ghostwriting. I think its a possibility. I can remember feeling SC on the strenght of the beats and Ghost’s delivery but at the same time thinking what the fuck is he talking about. Every time i listen to OB4CL i’m shocked at how coherent his lyrics were at that point.
— x7an Jul 19, 11:48 PM
“You graduate from Hampton University in 08 according to Facebook.”
Brandon, I’m just speaking in the interest in accuracy and also because I’m curious as to whose Facebook profile you’re looking at.
RHS is closer to my age (I’m 30, he’s in his late 20s I believe), didn’t go to an all black college and I’m pretty sure isn’t on Facebook.
— Rafi Jul 20, 12:21 AM
“Rafi,
Operation Doomsday came out in 99…”
I’m assuming you mean Brandon. I haven’t said anything about Doom in this post.
But for the record, I’m confident that Doom was not an influence on Ghostface in any way at the time of SC. Ghostface rocked the mask first, had the cartoon alter-ego first…
Also the rhyme styles are very different.
Doom is wordplay since third-grade age. Supreme Clientele Ghostface is stream of consciousness craziness not super concerned with working in multis and mashing up pop culture with street culture references.
— Rafi Jul 20, 12:28 AM
Brandon, I’m not the token black anything or the guy who writes abstracty journal entries. Take a look aroudn the site. Know your history. You must learn. Free yourself from the chains of terminal wiggerness.
— R.H.S. Jul 20, 12:40 AM
Rafi-
Whoops. My bad on that one. I’m retarded. Dunno why I thought that? Apologies to RHS on that as well.
That still doesn’t justify the kid remark or the wigger remark or the unnecessary attacks on my article…RHS still needs to air-out.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 20, 12:42 AM
Brandon why do you have such a hard time respecting your elders?
— noz Jul 20, 12:48 AM
Rafi,
Sorry about that. I was actually responding to something noz and brandon were discussing earlier on the site. Your the only cat I’m somewhat familiar with on this site and I’m sneaking this in while I’m at work. I just assumed you had written the original entry. To be quite honest I don’t see a lot of influence between the two. I guess the mask thing, but with ghost i thought he wore the mask originally because he was on the run. Doom it was suppossed to be more symbolic since everyone always knew who he was. I’m sorry to see the discussions have gotten so personal.
— x7an Jul 20, 12:50 AM
Noz, I hope you’re referring to my questioning of Ghostface’s writing and not my RESPONSES to RHS’s totally unnecessary comment on my post.
— brandonsoderberg Jul 20, 12:53 AM
Wigger
— R.H.S. Jul 20, 01:19 AM
The early Doom Fondle em’ singles came out in 97’/98’.
— 5252 Jul 20, 05:05 AM
“The thing is, Doom is as ironic as the hipsters. So much of Doom’s persona has slowly, almost completely focused on “Hey, remember Saturday morning cartoons??” At this point, he isn’t that different from Gnarls Barkley or something…”
^ Brandon lost.
— Robbie Jul 20, 05:40 AM
Reading these comments makes me tired, but a few points:
First, you mean to tell me that two producers both use samples? And they’re both from New York? Shocking. “Supreme Clientele” may have been the beginning of the cartoon samples, but Ghost’s first album was called Ironman. And while he’s not a huge comic book fan, other members of the Wu are. I remember reading an interview with Meth wherein he said he was the one who introduced Ghost to the Ironman comic and character. So there’s that.
Second, why does MF Doom “seek out a non-rap audience?” Because white people listen to his records? A lot of artists will tell you that sometimes, you can’t really pick your audience. See also: any Wu-Tang concert. Okay, so Doom has a regular affiliation with Adult Swim now. Given that he’s had problems in the past getting stuff released, money woes, etc., I’m sure many rappers (or other musicians) in similar situations would jump at that chance. For all we know, he had no idea there would be rapping cartoon characters on that album when he recording his tracks.
Finally, I think it’s implausible, but not impossible, that Doom and Ghost had never heard of each other up to a certain point. We seem to be assuming that they consume as much music and information as we do, which may be the case, and may be not. I kind of have a hard time imagining Ghost checking Nah Right every day. Bl_ck B_st_rds was supposed to be released in 1994, and Operation: Doomsday didn’t come out until ’99. Given what we know (or what we’ve heard) Doom was up to in that period, I have a feeling regular trips to the record store weren’t on his agenda.
— jon Jul 20, 09:19 AM
Sorry, one more:
Saying it’s plausible that someone else wrote Clientele because Ghost as never made as good an album since is like saying Killah Priest wrote Liquid Swords because the GZA hasn’t made as good an album since. Creative people are inconsistent. It happens.
— jon Jul 20, 09:25 AM
People! People! You’re letting Tony Yayo win!!! Can’t you see he wanted you to argue like children about the differences between Ghost and Zev Love X. But lets not forget that the Super Villian and Tony Starks have gotten over any alleged biting and are coming together to smash the world. If Ironman and Doom can make beautiful music together, why can’t we all just get along.
I pray for peace in the blogging world because blogger beef is cornball as fuck.— DocZeus Jul 20, 11:00 AM
For the record, Shorty Shitstain ghostwrites all of my blog comments.
Come on guys, a new Camp Lo album leaked and Kanye West nearly came out of the closet (no homo on both of those counts incidentally). Time to move on.
— Sach Jul 20, 12:20 PM
Not to mention the Common leak.
— Rafi Jul 20, 12:50 PM
@ B. Ware tha Siniq — your point(s) were making sense until you said “Ironman doesn’t sound like Fishscale”. That’s a pretty dumb statement – as if we expected Ghost to sound the exact same 10 years later. Ghost on Ironman and Ghost on SC would have been a better comparison.
— khal Jul 20, 03:50 PM
This is so fucking ridiculous it’s not even funny. You guys must have some serious time on your hands. Why don’t you pussies stage a mass burning of your Ghost LPs and quit whining like little girls?
— Marquis White Jul 20, 07:22 PM
Supreme Clientele is my top 5 rap albums off all time. I can quote soooo many bars on that album that are permanently stuck in my head.
“...rock boats under water, watch clams..”
“Ghost is back, stretch Caddilacs, fruit cocktails…”
“...heavy rain, fucked my kicks up, wasnt lookin, splashed in a puddle, bitch laughin, first thought, beat the bitch up…” lololol.
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE GHOST HAD GHOSTWRITERS ON THAT ALBUM...THAT ALBUM WAS HIS PEAK...— odum gregory Jul 21, 07:33 PM
If you listen to Superb on supreme clintele you can tell he was better then ghost he was still young and flow was crazy ghost just came home from jail the Wu had no hot rappers they all respected perb for his lyrics just think why ghost didnt put shyheim or one of the million wu tang rappers on that album cause perb was helping ghost in a big fucken way and i remember he also was doing a lot of writing for Bullet Proof Wallets if we was in our early twentys ghost was thirty something he could not write no fire like that and just tell me what other album he has that’s hot that’s perb not on i rest my case i could put bank state ments on the net when caruso the manager ghost once used paid niggas for that ghost writing and i got love for ghost he don’t got to admit that it was business but if you dumb ass internet junkies can’t hear or see so why do i think you should be able to play the fucken album and then you can be the judge. go get that album supreme clintele! perb’s Home too so keep ya ear to the streets Farrock America, Hard White, Get fresh, Common Corner Boys, We Will kill Farrock niggas don’t care and for you niggas frontin on perb he got a army now and we just might get at some of you niggas for the hell of it Rip, Moose , SWIFT, DOOSI, STACK, J-ROCK,
— Farrock America (Management) Apr 29, 09:33 AM
@— Farrock America (Management)
thats all well and good but Perb is a fukin dirty sex offender. a 12 year old girl.
— D Mar 24, 04:23 PM