Polos, Tuition, and Jesus (Why I Believe I Can Fly)

Sep 14, 2007

Polos, Tuition, and Jesus (Why I Believe I Can Fly) · by Thaddeus Clark

“I’m from the kitchen table of lost artists,
Banging out words of false promise,
That echo through hallways of deaf teachers,
Mind-set is shaped on old-wooden bleachers…”

If you’re a hip hop artist then you are most likely living, observing, or
running from the ghetto.

The gangsters are having difficulty building a consensus on whether they hate or love the hood.

While the so-called conscious rappers are avidly discussing the ills, beauty, or importance of “the streets” at cocktail parties.

And the remaining rappers equate the ghetto with black culture and therefore try making music devoid of any elements of black expression (while of course relying upon black expression ).

The irony of this charade is that the vast majority of people in this country identify themselves as middle-class.

And if hip-hop is the pulse of our generation, then something is missing.

Not since A Tribe Called Quest was making near-platinum albums has there been a voice for the middle class.

It’s not an easy task, just ask these dudes.

The hood and streets have become the concept du jour for good reason.

As a topic, the inner city has all the elements of great story:

Danger. Struggle. Conflict.

Gangster/Coke/Player/Pimp/Hustle rap is like our modern day Western.

Even if the artists of now are concocting rebelliousness in
test-tubes, there is still something about the villain that keeps pulling us in.

I guess if you were going to be the black sheep in the hip-hop world you’d actually have to be “the good guy,” right?

And hopefully not corny.

So what is the formula for becoming the voice of the forgotten middle-class masses?

How about:

Being in tune with yourself,
Understanding where you come from,
And articulating this experience while knowing that the entire industry is aiming for something else?

For the last 4 years there is only one artist who understands this.

Who is this masked man?

His name is Kanye West, a middle-class artist from Chicago.

Contrary to earlier reports, Thaddeus Clark is not your biological father.
However, he is part of Side Hustle.
You can preview their work-in-progress here.

Comments for "Polos, Tuition, and Jesus (Why I Believe I Can Fly)"

We should all be so fortunate to have a couture junkie articulating the pains of working at the Gap amidst his prada placements and PR blitzing.

— sankofa Sep 14, 11:05 AM
I’m going to agree with Sankofa. If anything Kanye West represents exactly how barren, self-absorbed, narcissistic and uncaring a certain part of middle class America has become. The rap “who wants to be a millionaire”.

Or as Dave Chappelle once said: Sit down! You won by default.

— Sach Sep 14, 11:37 AM
I guess an observer with no sense of context could easily assume that a rapper proclaiming the use Oil of Olay, taking bubble baths, wearing fly green socks, brushing his gold teeth, and filing his finger nails while wearing big gold chains diminishes the quality of their music, right?

The problem is we consider Slick Rick a great artist.

So why the disconnect?

Embrace style my brethren because the train is moving with or without you: http://www.melatonemusic.com/blog/2007/3/17/how-we-listen-to-rap-style-part-2.html

— Thadd Clark Sep 14, 12:20 PM
One major difference is that Slick Rick is an infinitely more talented rapper, and despite his highly stylized homages to couture and pomp, retains a sincere humility and a respectable love for his craft and has done so despite not being anywhere near the top for quite some time.

Your post was thought provoking, except that you rely way too heavily on rigid terminology to describe shifting populations. If A Tribe Called Quest were “middle class” because they lived in detached homes rented out by their 80 hr/wk working mothers, then they represented an extremely fragile, often transient portion of America’s middle class- an urban black lower middle class a few paychecks out of the projects and a few minutes drive away from the Baisley Projects where some of the nation’s most brazen and lucrative drug transactions were taking place daily. The reason that they were respected as artists is because they expressed a hope through their music that the conspicuous ills of the ghetto could be rendered in crucial detail and even trascended through creative artistry. Whether or not this was an overly romantic notion is ultimately besides the point because Tribe were pretty shrewd in keeping thei ears to the concrete without exploiting and overindulging the seamier side of life (see “Midnight.”) Kanye’s approach to both music and social commentary doesn’t seem nearly as balanced or outward in scope. Though that doesn’t make him a terrible person or a bad artist per se. But

— R.H.S. Sep 14, 12:32 PM
Rigid opinion clinging is in full effect around here. Kanye is one of the very few ARTISTS left, who say what you will about his taste or clothes or whatever, puts his all into every song. He truly gives a fuck about making music, not selling albums. As for his alleged shallowness, he made a fucking song explaining how retarded he realizes he’s being and what his materialism represents, but concedes his willingness to go along. (He repeats this theme on Can’t tell me nothin)Fault him if you will but its pretty indicative of the current hip hop culture climate. I cant understand how people are hating on this album, there is such a unified feel and concept to it in a moment in which we are being crushed by cookie cutter mainstream releases. I mean its not perfect, but to say he doesnt respect his craft or its emotionally devoid is simply false, I dont believe either of you have given it a chance

— Abe Beame Sep 14, 12:55 PM
Now we’re getting somewhere.

RHS – I think if you read Brandon’s posts re: Kanye you would see that Mr. West has a deep respect for the craft. Here’s a video as well (scroll down): http://www.melatonemusic.com/blog/2007/1/31/artform-urban.html

Kanye’s attitude and public persona may rub many the wrong way but it shouldn’t effect how we absorb his music.

I will never debate the merits of Slick Rick or ATCQ because 1. they’re both greats and 2. it’s unfair to heap the standards of yesterday and expect them to be overtly expressed by the artists of now.

I think the same spirit of Tribe is in Kanye’s music. Is he overindulgent, sure, but so was “Amplified.” It didn’t change my opinion of Tribe’s legacy.

I’m sorry that you think I’m using rigid class definitions but I actually think the Middle Class is the most fluid of classes. I think it’s safe to assume that if you grew up on the coasts (and Chicago + Houston) in a middle class setting you were always minutes away from the hood. I know I was. I’m technically from the most dangerous city in California (Richmond) but you wouldn’t know it looking outside my window…my cousins a few minutes away, however…

Since the middle class is such a large section of America you will get varying degrees of exposure to crime, higher education, the struggle to maintain status, ambitious attempts to leap into the next class, as well as the families that fall back into the lower class. All of these things are present in the middle class but I think with less intensity. Being the middle means you’re rubbing up against elements on both sides of the spectrum. I think Kanye’s 3 albums are a testament to this exact experience.

— Thadd Clark Sep 14, 01:02 PM
If he cares so much about making music why is his new album wack faggy garbage?

Kanye is a great producer, with decidedly homo/metrosexual tendencies. He’s never been a good rapper, and that’s ok with a lot of people who aren’t that smart or just enjoy his “charisma” (or I would argue sometimes-funny flamboyance). On the first two records his “charisma” was almost enough to help his corniness on the mic, and he stuck with a familiar and safe beatscape. This time he shows his true colors, and went the Euro route all the way. Europeans are much more ok with bein’ effeminent than Americans are. They like to rock fashion-mullets and tight clothes (all things Kanye, Dipset, Pharell, Lupe, Common, and Lil Wayne now endorse). Reminds me of that blog Bol had on xxl awhile back where he said rappers are now just tryin’ ghey shit openly to see how people respond. If you can recongize Kanye as the hip hop Freddie Mercury and you still want to listen to the shit, then cool, more power to you. Personally, I think this music will only serve to increase the number of 19 year old boys with queer-hawks dancin’ face to face in the discotecha. I do agree that this is the direction hip hop is heading (and has been for about two, three years now). But I refuse to raise a rainbow flag and wave it limp-wristed just because it’s the cool thing to do.

— B. Ware tha Siniq Sep 14, 01:21 PM
To be fair, I think that Kanye reflected the values you speak of earlier in his career. However I have a hard time figuring out what House music, Japanese designers and the description of a superstar lifestyle have to do with the everyman.

Don’t get me wrong: I don’t think Kanye West is talentless. He made a worldly, forward thinking record. Compared to the vast majority of major-label rap music he’s killing it. But I don’t think he should be celebrated solely based on the fact that he doesn’t represent a drug-dealer aesthetic when the bourgeois capitalism he now embodies is a hair away.

Like it or not, the media has hammered a false dichotomy in our heads with this 50 Cent vs. Kanye feud. It’s made 50 Cent look more callous (if that was possible) and it’s made Kanye West look more virtuous.

I’ll give him credit for putting together a complete album (though not one that appeals to my sensibilities) and his accomplishments as a musician. I just don’t believe that his image represents a breakthrough at all. Not to repeat myself, but when a raging egomaniac prima donna represents a step up from the current norm, that doesn’t bode well for society.

— Sach Sep 14, 01:22 PM
Wow. Respectfully B Ware, you sound like Hillary Clinton talking to FUCKING BULLET POINTS. Drop the rhetoric. Kanye isn’t some literal or figurative dick rider exploiting some type of gay hip hop trend, and if you isolate those last four words I think youll realize how fucking stupid that concept is. And Sach, fair enough, no one said Kanyes making music for the everyman, hes making music for himself, about himself, extremely open to and exploring all of his flaws and contradictions. Forget the sales face off, “Drunk and Hot Girls” is aesthetically the worst song on the album, probably that he’s ever made, but its great because he actually takes a step back and rather than give us the billionth song about how many bitches hes fucked hes commenting on how that kind of sucks sometimes. Most of us have woken up next to a drunk and hot obnoxious ass girl, and hes speaking to that situation. Its the first, and only song I can think of on the issue since “Friend of Mine.” Thats just an example of how his music is really interesting. It strives to broaden the range of experience you can write a rap song about, not just selling crack in Queens over gritty mid 90s styled production. (I loved the album by the way)B Ware, I read your Kool G Rap piece, your better than that. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE. LISTEN. (No DJ Khaled)

— Abe Beame Sep 14, 01:43 PM
Sach it seems like you have a bigger problem with the packaging then the actual substance. But all is fair in hip-hop blogging.

You agree that he’s talented and that his album is decent but you’re getting hung up on the image vs. the music.

Again look at at his artistic process before the PR, fashion hustle, and award shows (scroll down after clicking):

http://www.melatonemusic.com/blog/2007/1/31/artform-urban.html

that’s not an image.

I don’t see why all the external noise is getting in the way of seeing a great artist deliver the goods?

I don’t think Kanye deserves my respect just because he’s on the other end of the dichotomy. You don’t get points for just standing on the other side.

But he’s been able to successfully articulate a different American experience then most (both good and bad) and put it to good music.

Despite what you hope Rappers will not save society.

— Thadd Clark Sep 14, 01:46 PM
I’m with Thad, Abe, Brandon, etc.

Nobody said “everyman”... Everyone knows Kanye has ego issues, half his songs are about that.

I think the key point here is we don’t have a guy who assumes he has to define himself in terms of his relationship to “the hood” or “the struggle” but can still comment on those things.

To borrow one of RHS’s favorite words, Kanye defies binaries. He raps about himself – his accomplishments, his aspiration, his pettiness, his family, his need to be loved, his moments trying to transcend.

So it’s an everyman elevated to celebrity by way of massive talent and ten years of sticking it out. He’d be lying if he acted like he was still living a middle class lifestyle. It’s clear to me that that’s not the point here.

Unlike other rappers who have either tried the I’m gonna leave the hood-talk behind me or not go that fake gangsta route (late Jay-Z, Common, Talib, Rhymefest, many boring indie rappers), Kanye still has plenty of interesting shit to talk about because he is so seemingly transparent about his perspective, his ego, his hang-ups. And he’s witty, and a sharp writer.

And most refreshingly.. I love that Kanye has this love of hip-hop across the spectrum. To me Kanye is extremely relatable because he is a passionate and funny rap fan.

Again, binaries are avoided and contradictions abound … Kanye frequently collaborates with the same drug-pushing street rappers that Thad is here saying he is making obsolete.

He can’t help himself when something bumps or feels good and look around… he knows he’s not alone there.

— rafi Sep 14, 01:51 PM
B Ware,

That may be the worst Oh Word comment ever. Unfunny, unoriginal and took forever just repeating the same “Kanye is gay” message for WAY TOO LONG.

Really… it really really sucked.

I’m actually feeling remorse that I just offered you a chance to post here a few days back.

— rafi Sep 14, 01:54 PM
hey thad… to make a textile link just put the text you want to be the link copy in quotes followed immediately (no space) by a colon, followed immediately by the url.

so for instance this is the url you’ve been inserting.

or you can make it visible:

http://www.melatonemusic.com/blog/2007/1/31/artform-urban.html

i’ll go edit your past comments… sorry about the whole textile thing. i’ll make linking automatic when we redesign the site next month.

— rafi Sep 14, 01:59 PM
I have a problem with his character (which has always been a part of his lyrics) and as his ego became more inflated I’ve progressively lost interest. And like I said, the reality he’s currently expressing is extremely similar to other emcees particularly on this new album.

I don’t expect rap to save society but there’s a lot to be said for taking a stand instead of reveling in distopia. Particularly if you should know better like Mr. West.

— Sach Sep 14, 02:05 PM
What exactly is the dystopia he needs to take a stand against? Don’t you in turns criticize and support ignorant rap? Don’t you accuse rap critics who bash all rap of being idiots or hypocrites?

People turn off their ears when they hear preachy messages that go against their beliefs. Before you can change anyone you have to have them listen.

Kanye speaks his mind and has ended up playing the role of a hip-hop conscience. Not a “conscious” rapper which nobody will listen to but a “conscience” one which on occasion everyone hears.

— rafi Sep 14, 02:13 PM
B. Ware tha Siniq —-

I don’t know what to say. Really. You sound like every backwards, living in the 80’s, homophobic, mental midget I’ve ever had the displeasure of having to work with or be around.

I bet you’re saying Phew every time that Cam’Ron or Jim Jones says “No Homo” especially after you saw Cam wearing Pink and/or Purple.

I hate to say “It’s 2007,” but god damn motherfucker, IT’S 2007. Get familiar. (Yes Clinton Sparks.) And if you’re going to keep ignorant, then stay stupid, because you’ve made yourself a piñata we’re all going to love to smash in the future.

— Henry Casey Sep 14, 02:15 PM
Re: Siniq,

My man got fired before he got hired. Wild!

— Thadd Clark Sep 14, 02:33 PM
Great thread here. But the album sucks to my ears no matter how many bizarre spins fellow bloggers can put on Kanye’s narrative persona.

— R.H.S. Sep 14, 02:39 PM
“Kanye isn’t some literal or figurative dick rider exploiting some type of gay hip hop trend, and if you isolate those last four words I think youll realize how fucking stupid that concept is.”

You may not realize it, maybe because your removed from real urban culture (I don’t know, maybe you’re right in the thick of it and still don’t see it), but things that would’ve normally been classified as denoting open homosexuality in the hood (and are still considered such by the older heads) are MUCH more acceptable and common today in both hip hop and the inner city. In fact, they don’t even necessarily denote homosexuality anymore, because they’ve become so commonplace and hip, that it’s become fashionable. West’s ahead of where most artists are, and willing to go places a lot of them would not (because he doesn’t have street credibility to lose, since the hustlers and gangstas of the hood wrote him off as a fruit awhile ago).

As far as Kanye goes, I don’t think he’s a dickrider (well at least not of a “trend”) I just think he sees that Euro-hipsterism is cool with both white and black teenagers, and he’s jumpin’ on the bandwagon full force (before it’s really a bandwagon, but it will be). I get that a lot of you guys think hip hop is too homophobic, so you see it as pushing the envelope. I can agree that he’s doin’ that. He’s takin’ hip hop to place it’s never been before, because the American public has never been ready for it. The climate is such now, in hip hop, and in America as a whole… that a lot of people are ready for this shit. Obviously you are. So I get that it’s a big step, I really do. And I promise there will be a lot more :pause: moments in hip hop in the future, just like there are more of them on the streets of Harlem everyday.

I listened to this album a few times (more than I would have liked to) because a lot of people really think he’s doin’ something artistic and dope here. I don’t see it. I can get with Tribe, I can get with Run-DMC, I can get with a lot of middle class rap (hell a lot more of rap comes from artists with middle class backgrounds than most people realize). I take exception to people making the tribe comparisons, because it’s not legit. For one thing Tribe was never as industry-savvy as Kanye is, nor were they attention whores, nor was their music as one-dimensional. Kanye has been talking about the same things for three albums now, with decreasing effectiveness. He’s easily as trite and cliched lyrically as 50 Cent. The difference is in snap-dance era of hip hop, dancing and Euro-fashion have taken the place of tim boots and gun talk. Kanye is not making brilliant music, but he is hittin’ the right market at the right time. Hipsters black & white all over the world will rep for him. If you want to applaud him for that, then that’s cool, but I just don’t see any real depth to what he’s doing. I see the vision though.

— B. Ware tha Siniq Sep 14, 02:42 PM
DUDE, don’t you know that ANY DEVELOPMENT IN RAP THAT SUGGESTS A RELAXED ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE PRESENCE OF WOMEN, WHITES, AND EFFEMINATE QUASI-HOMOSEXUALS MUST BE EMBRACED WHOLEHEARTEDLY LEST OVERSENSITIVE LIMOUSINE LIBERAL/FOUR ELEMENTS THEORETICIANS DENOUNCE YOU AS SOME RED STATE TROGLODYTE/NIGGERISH STREET URCHIN???
All hail Me Phi Me, Northern State, Lil’ Kim, Pit Bull, Eminem, and Lil’ Mama. The true face of multi-culti rainbow rap for the new millenium. Provincial black male urban agression and surrealist amoral word twisting be damned!!!!!!!!!!!

— R.H.S. Sep 14, 02:50 PM
“You may not realize it, maybe because your removed from real urban culture (I don’t know, maybe you’re right in the thick of it and still don’t see it), but things that would’ve normally been classified as denoting open homosexuality in the hood (and are still considered such by the older heads) are MUCH more acceptable and common today in both hip hop and the inner city. In fact, they don’t even necessarily denote homosexuality anymore, because they’ve become so commonplace and hip, that it’s become fashionable.”

O RLY?

— rafi Sep 14, 02:59 PM
I don’t see Kanye as a binary-defying rapper. I see him as an artist who has benefited from the fans’ desperate need for binary-defying rappers. Recall the initial critical erection for Saigon, Rhymefest, and Lupe: it had nothing to do with these rappers’ talent or product. The critics focused on the fact that these 3 are from the ghetto, but are not typical thug rappers. Their identities—a conscious, reformed thug; a blue collar hero; a skateboarding toy-collecting nerd—were supposed to make them interesting, but their “ghetto-cred” was supposed to make them authentic. Kanye is even better for identitiy purposes because most of the critics can relate to the effete black bougie middle-class character Kanye plays (is?), but Kanye still makes enough nods to “the streets” to make him black enough for white critics.

Also, these critics haven’t painted 50 as the villain this week simply because he’s a dick, because his music is formulaic, and because he’s too mainstream and no longer threatening to soccer moms; they also hate him because of his corporate visibility. Kanye and Jack White might catch a few backhanded comments about their soda commercials, but critics don’t let that bleed into their perception of the music. However, because Jay Z and 50 are the embodiment of unabashed corporate shill-ery, and are not ashamed of it, critics do not view them as “authentic” artists, hence the excessive Kingdom Come hate (lame album, but not even Jay Z’s worst) and the current 50-bashing.

By the way. I like the beats on Graduation, despite the fact that they are hipster-bait.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 14, 03:00 PM
“the album sucks to my ears no matter how many bizarre spins fellow bloggers can put on Kanye’s narrative persona.”

Pretty much. And I was one of the people supporting his last two releases.

— Sach Sep 14, 03:07 PM
Yes and many people back then looked at those fashion moves as being decidedly un-street too. But, like this era, that was one which embraced the euro-techno-hipster agenda. And if you ask most of those doods in those pictures I’m sure they’d tell you they were wearing those clothes because some manager told ‘em it would help them out, or because they were trying to fit a mold of what was popular. They’d also probably say they’d never put something like that on ever again. I see Flash every now and again, and LA Sunshine and I work at the same job. Trust that they are not putting on purple bapes and matchin’ doo-rags to compliment their skintight jeans just yet. Nevertheless, to paraphrase Charlie Murphy, if you were around in that era you were rockin’ some tight, funny ass lookin’ shit. No doubt. And that is exactly where we’re heading again. Kanye is leading the charge.

I was at the Kingdome (The Harlem b-ball tournament, not the defunct Seattle ballpark) when the Retro Kids showed up (if you don’t know who they are then google). They were shamelessly clowned by the announcer and many of the Taft, Johnson, & Jefferson residents backed away or gave funny looks. It was a very awkward scene. They wanted to dance to Kwame’s polka dots, but the encroaching white yuppies have outlawed music at the Kingdome (which used to be a big part of the appeal… realize I’m all over the place here). If you compare that to the love they get on 106 and Park (just five blocks away from the Kingdome) with the 12-18 year old crowd, it’s like night and day.

My point is the hood is divided very clearly along age lines here. If you’re a 25 or older urban male you see this shit as faux-throwback to aspects of an era you’d rather not revisit. Like how snap-dances are seen by some as homage to early hip hop party music by some, and bad faux-rehashing of aspects of an era they’d rather not revisit by artists who have no clue what that era was really like in the first place by the rest. Kanye knows what the 80’s were like, but he’s still bowdlerizing them (and creatin’ a new hip hop soundscape at the same time). I’m just sick of the bowdlerization. Even if it does have a new twist. To me there’s no difference between Kanye West and Solja Boy (except that Kanye knows better).

— B. Ware tha Siniq Sep 14, 03:21 PM
Great post.

— Incilin Sep 14, 03:22 PM
I feel like this is as someone where to go ahead and greenlight a Melachi the Nutcraker solo album.

Kanye West at his best(which is becoming more and more rare) is the new school version of Q-tip. Not lyrically fearsome or ferocious, but humble enough and decent enough to bring insightful lines that wander around in your subconcious. At his worst he is something more like Melachi the Nutcracker from Group Home. Except Melachi can keep the beat a bit better and has a cooler sounding voice. I always thought that if I did not understand english, Group Home’s Living Proof album would probably be my favorite hip-hop album. Some of the finest production by one of the best hip-hop producers of all time, a pair of really unique and sincere voices trading back and forth stanzas, if I didn’t understand the meaning of the words, I would adore it. I can understand english though, so this is a problem since the words Kanye raps have actual meaning to them. And the production is nothing short of atrocious and syrupy.

For some reason, DJ Toomp decided to try and rehash “What You Know About That” with his synth lines for “Can’t tell Me Nothing” and Kanye added a little vocal sample. But his phrasing, his pacing, and his breath control all leave much to be desired. Whereas Group Home has phrasing and pacing down a bit better, the main problem they had was the lyrical content. Kanye raps very sloppily, sometimes making huge awkward pauses before continuing lines, and making strange segways from line to line, like he is trying to emphasis the phrases as if they were profound and worthy of duplicate listens, but they are not. He doesn’t really try to attempt to have a stacatto or rapid fire paced flow, which might be able to mask or hide the fact that his lyrics are wack with jarring rythm or , instead he seems to try and slow everything down more so than is necessary as if anything he says is actually important.

What does he choose to rap about? L.V. bags and tight pants. His attempts at punchlines are beyond corny they are seriously like something a rapping granny would write. “Buy any jeans necessary”, “Gnarls Barkley meets Charles Barkley” and so on and so on.

The most painful thing about these lyrics is the refusal Kanye has to listen to anyone besides his own inflated ego. Its like he cant take any form of constructive criticism, instead it gets blown out of grandiouse proportions and anyone who doesn’t like his rap style is somehow a “hater” or against the pretentious mindfuck of a movement he seems to be organizing to hail his own so-called genius and achievements.

The move to use primarily syth-based sounds and sampling daft Punk is odd, but it seems Kanye is trying to appeal to a more, (and i hate to play the race card I really do)white european audience. Why would any rapper think meshing anything hip-hop with Coldplay is a good idea? The only Chris Martin I want to hear on any hip-hop album is the one who works with the GURU. And i don’t mean Young Guru.

But then again we are talking about a diva who posed as Jesus Christ on Rolling Stone. If Kanye had someone in his camp who wasn’t a yes man and could actually tell him the TRUTH, that his rhyming is incompetent, not funny and lazy, maybe he would have decided to have more guest verse from better rappers, a wise move he made on Late Registration. I don’t understand why T-Pain was included, except maybe to cash in on his recent god-awful popularity, but the sampling of the annoying part of P.Y.T. and drowing it out with washy synth noises is almost as bad as T-pains vocoder and Kanyes hollow words of “The Good Life”. I prefer the T.I. song of the same name.

Now as far as production goes, maybe if someone like Kane or even T.I. could have embellished the beats, we could hear them in a different perspective. For some reason, even though I know he is totally a no-name to the current wave of mindless Soulja Boy worshipping teens, I can hear Big Daddy Kane’s voice and prowess and cadence doing wonders to the beats on this album. But that would defy Kanye’s ego. And speaking of ego,if it weren’t bad enough that Lil Wayne decided recently to call himself the “best rapper alive” (while Ice cube, Kane, Krs, Rakim, Nas, Scarface, hell even Snoop Dogg are still alive) Kanye makes the assertion that he is in the “top five”. Sorry, Kanye, even on a good day I can think of 5 female rappers who are better than you. It seems these rappers just think they an say things and automatically they become true. Thats sort of the moral to the album. If I belive in it, no matter how many other people don’t, it must eventually be true and one day I’ll live the good life, cause otherwise I don’t matter. People need to stop championing subpar talent, only because the climate is mediocre. I know that hip-hop is in some sort of famine, but just because someone offers you some food and youre hungry doenst mean that the meal is “groundbreaking” or “legendary” or even tasty. At this point in time, Kanye’s producing is getting to be almost as bad a Eminem’s. And Eminem’s rapping is getting almost as bad as Kanyes.

The worst part of the album is truly the song about Jay-Z. There was a reason he was keeping you at arms length, and it wasn’t cause he was afraid you would be a bigger star(how you have the ego to even consider that is scary). Its because your rapping is as good as beanie seigels acting.

In short, a diva whom had a past staple of interesting hip-hop ideas, decided to make a syrupy, overblown and inflated piece of euro-club-electro-pop, decided to make bold claims that he has no reasonable substantaiting evidence to back up, and indulge himself in his materialistic, psuedo-“concious”, wannabe groundbreaking and envelope pushing persona. His whole album seems like a move to legitamize throwing tantrums at awards shows and rocking 500 dollar man purses. The worst part about this album is that its on pace to sell well, and that means another album of these whiny trendy sytnth stabs and inflated ego raps is coming all too soon.

— fggddgdf Sep 14, 04:58 PM
^^^Exactly how I feel about the album, were I to take the time to articulate it in a way that isn’t so offensive. Well put.

— B. Ware tha Siniq Sep 14, 05:25 PM
“At this point in time, Kanye’s producing is getting to be almost as bad a Eminem’s.”

^^^^

This is way more offensive than the “Kanye is a fruit” stuff.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 14, 05:28 PM
WHAT IS WRONG WITH EURO-CLUB-ELECTRO-POP BEING INCORPORATED INTO RAP?!

Is “boom-bap” and jazz- and soul-sampled rap the only kind of rap that should be made? Is that the only “true” and “authentic” style of rap production? Get the fuck outta here.

WHY DOES KANYE NEED TO RAP FAST? WHY ARE SLOWER, MORE DELIBERATE FLOWS APPARENTLY BAD?

WHY IS IT BAD TO WEAR TIGHT PANTS AND HAVE A “EURO” STYLE AND A SENSE OF FASHION?

Do you want all black youth (or anyone, for that matter) to wear baggy ass jeans and oversized jerseys and things that just looking fucking bad and have no sense of style?

WHY ARE YOU GUYS MAKING IT SOUND LIKE HOMOSEXUALITY IS STILL WRONG?

fggddgdf, B. Ware tha Siniq, these questions are aimed at you two. You’re both on some ignorant shit. People like you piss me off.

— Renato Pagnani Sep 14, 07:16 PM
if you feel so strongly about gay rappers, why don’t you write a review of caution’s album? I don’t remember saying homosexuality was wrong, but I dont remember saying it was right either. Why does hip-hop have to be pro-gay rights? Whats wrong with being masculine and being a man, instead of whining and throwing tantrums and buying expensive gaudy jewelry and clothing that mostly women like? Why can’t hip-hop be about manhood? Why does it have to be pro-gay if its about manhood?

— fdsajkdsajkdas Sep 14, 08:15 PM
If you don’t think gay people can be masculine, google-image “Tom of Finland”.

— brandonsoderberg Sep 14, 08:41 PM
Rap doesn’t have to be pro- gay rights, it just shouldn’t be anti-gay rights. If it’s ambivalent towards gay rights, whatever. But rap has also always been more liberal than most, if not all, music genres. I also did not say I think there is anything “right” about homosexuality (although I don’t find anything particularly “right” about heterosexuality either).

There’s nothing wrong with being masculine and being a man. But what’s wrong with being effeminate and being a man? Or being a mixture of both? There are as many “types” of man as there are plants in this world, none more “right” than any other.

Rap is also pretty damn “pro-manhood,” and I don’t see how in any way Kanye is not a man.

— Renato Pagnani Sep 14, 09:24 PM
Not saying there’s anything wrong with homosexuality, and I’m sorry if my comment came off that way. If somebody told me that Nas was gay, it wouldn’t deminish my enjoyment of Illmatic. Just like Aristotle isn’t any less brilliant due to his sexual orientation. What I dislike is the aesthetic he’s appealing to, his overconfidence in his abilities, his hissy fits, and a music that reflects and revels in this personality as if it is virtuous. My words before were short, and caricatured, because I’m sick of hearing people talk about this album, already. Kanye is not the new Rakim, or the new Q-Tip… he’s more like the new Whodini if he’s anything at all. And yes I realize Whodini is an essential old school group, but then again they also died out around the time Disco got played out. And as I said before it’s an era I think we’d rather not revisit.

So, as far as the european musical influence being a problem? I just don’t fuckin’ feel it man. The albums sounds like the freakin’ soundtrack to Finding Nemo Pt. 3 (Nemo falls asleep and dreams of a being in an Anime watchin’ Japanese and European discotech). Call me old school, but that’s some next shit I don’t think I’ll ever be ready for. As somebody said before, maybe if they had different rappers over the beats, I’d feel differently about them. But honestly in my mind I can’t detach the music from the spoiled rotten prince of rap, spitting slow off beat incoherent fashion rap. Not conscious, but with a conscience (as if Scarface, UGK, Biggie, and Nas don’t).

Finally, do I think black kids should all wear baggy clothes? That’s completely up to them, and I have no stake in what kind of pants they wear. Kanye on the other hand does have stock in it, and probably gets money from fashion designers with all the shout outs he gives on his albums and interviews. I don’t think anybody should change their fashion agenda (or even have a fashion agenda) because rappers are doing it, but we see it all the time. So now you’ve got them, once again, trying to find ways to scramble to afford labels that they can’t (or find a way to bootleg ‘em). And we should applaud this? Is an extreme savant like obsession with fashion really better than a world of fictional violence?

— B. Ware tha Siniq Sep 14, 09:26 PM
Renato = reading my mind.

this “it’s all Eurotrash” mentality in particular, is the same reason people’re completely blind to why Timbaland and Danjahandz are absolutely dominating pop lately, and wondering why DJ McBoringBap ain’t gettin’ any radioplay. yes, from what i’ve heard a lotta regular techno is garbage and not my type of music, but i get the feeling y’all’re judging this shit without even listening to it. the production here is aeons ahead of College Dropout. i’d argue it’s better than LR, but that’s more up for debate.

there’s rap music i like but can understand what elements others wouldn’t, and then there’s stuff that’s so good i don’t know how people can hate on it.

if y’all wouldn’t get so fuckin’ hung up on how “arrogant” ‘Ye is (and let’s face it, dude’d probably be just another boring “conscious” emcee if he was Mr. Humble) you’d probably enjoy his music a lot more.

— T.R.E.Y. Sep 14, 10:08 PM
I find it amusing that B. Ware sees a threat posed by Kanye with his non-alpha-male fashion sense. Is he that frightened Kanye’s inclination to rock pink Polo shirts and small Burberry backpacks will influence the members of his community (and quite possibly himself too?) to follow the trend? How much of an insecure portrait does this paint of someone who worries about such things? I rock a conventional blue collar hip hop look myself but I wasn’t sweating profusely when Andre3000 starting rocking leather suspenders and lime green Wizard Of Oz looking jumpsuits. Just enjoy the music, don’t worry about the rest. You are a consumer not a follower. You get to choose what you take from the music and what to leave behind. And if you don’t like it, then don’t consume it. It’s that simple.

— Jay B Sep 14, 11:25 PM
There’s plenty to dislike about Kanye but to disregard his lyrics as only being about fashion is retarded. Plenty of rappers pepper their lyrics with references to name-brands. It’s not like that’s a new thing.

Would you accuse Raekwon and Ghost of getting a kick-back from Tommy Hilfiger?

— brandonsoderberg Sep 14, 11:27 PM
Guys, why are we arguing about Kanye when there are so many potential posts to write about LIL’ WAYNE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

— R.H.S. Sep 15, 12:24 AM
“i get the feeling y’all’re judging this shit without even listening to it.”—T.R.E.Y.

Word. It’s wack to judge something without really listening to it.

“Timbaland > DJ Premier
yep i went there. how many Premo beats’ve i heard? don’t ask me that. i’m too ign’ant to answer!”—T.R.E.Y.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 15, 02:01 AM
I still haven’t really listened to much KW (yet… I plan to eventually), so I can’t really comment on his MCing merits, but…
These mentions of his arrogance… Is there an MC out there who DOESN’T claim to be the best regularly? If there is, don’t tell me, ‘cause I don’t wanna know about him. :-D

— Werner von Wallenrod Sep 15, 02:04 AM
lol@eau. i knew someone’d get offended by that! not too surprised it’s you either.

for the record, i like both, although it takes a lot to top Timbo in my book. and i’ve heard a lot of Premo’s most “omigod this is the best shit ever crafted” beats, so ya know.

stilllll, let’s stay on topic here. ya can pretend like you’re the great hypocrite-catcher ‘bout my half-serious comment in the Timbahate thread.

— T.R.E.Y. Sep 15, 02:24 AM
“offended” was the wrong word i think. but anyway.

— T.R.E.Y. Sep 15, 02:26 AM
Why would you expect me to be upset? Revisit that post and look at what I wrote in defense of Timbaland.

And just to save you the trouble, you can’t stop with the “new hipster favorite rapper” > “revered 80s/90s rapper” comments. The reason nobody responds to them is because nobody cares. Different strokes, man.

I only have problems with superficial listening habits and a lack of history/context.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 15, 03:35 AM
Eau-
One can know their history and/or context and still prefer something newer or less “hip-hop”. I hate how anybody that has a differing opinion is challenged on a lack of knowledge about the past.

— brandonsoderberg Sep 15, 11:35 AM
That ain’t cool to be.

— Beans Sep 15, 11:37 AM
who cares about the “europop agenda”? Hip hop was meant to be a voice for the hood, or at least the anti-mainstream.

— fredMS Sep 15, 05:37 PM
Brandon,

What makes you think that I was talking about younger fans or fans who prefer newer material? I don’t like for people to dismiss anything without having given it a good listen. I’ve defended Chamillionaire and Wayne from people who dismiss them without having heard their shit, despite the fact that I’m indifferent to Cham and I don’t like Wayne at all.

T.R.E.Y. specifically has made it a habit of slighting older “canonical” hip hop that he admits he hasn’t really listened to. That’s bunk, and that was the target of my response.

You aren’t being disrespected by “black cultural gatekeepers,” who apparently have conspired to prevent people like you, T.R.E.Y., and Breihan from moving rap forward.

Stop being so defensive…and give up the straw man.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 15, 07:14 PM
Eauhellzgnaw clearly doesn’t understand the kind of psychological torment that negroes inflict upon white people when they laugh at them for excitedly mistaking the first few bars of “Children’s Story” for “This is How We Do It.” How amazingly insensitive. It’s a warm, equatorial world out there, man, caucasoids gotta pack their own sunscreen, in this case the SPF5000 called “irony.” Wordlife.

— R.H.S. Sep 15, 08:00 PM
Big Daddy Kane weighs in: http://s220.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/fatlacemagazine/?action=view&current=puma-bdk_generic_4-dv-ntsc.flv

— R.H.S. Sep 15, 08:59 PM
eau — cheel.

speakin’ of Cham, anyone else waitin’ on the 9/18 after-battle? Cham vs. Twista. intense!

i might check out Twista’s actually. not so sure ‘bout Cham cuz from what i’ve h…sheeit there i go again

— T.R.E.Y. Sep 16, 05:17 AM
“who cares about the “europop agenda”? Hip hop was meant to be a voice for the hood, or at least the anti-mainstream.”

Bambaataa wept.

— Rafi Sep 16, 11:41 AM
Eau, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. If you’re referring to comments I’ve made elsewhere, well respond to them there, not here.

When you use words like “history/context”, I’m going to respond because I think it’s simple-minded.

It’s like talking to my grandfather. TANGENTIALLY-RELATED EXAMPLE:
When all that “Greatest generation” bunk stared popping up, I got in discussions with my grandfather and many others about how I thought it was uh, bunk. It reached it’s pinnacle when WWII vets got a GIANT-ASS monument in DC because of course, they deserved one because those Vietnam vets had one. Nevermind that the Vietnam memorial was built because people weren’t honoring them.

When all of this happened, I heard about “history/context” etc. it’s more just a way to unequivocally shut someone you disagree with up, it’s cheap.

— brandonsoderberg Sep 16, 03:29 PM
Y’all are still talking about this? Whatever happened to download-delete?

I dunno what’s funnier, Kanye’s supporters desperately digging up every glammed out emcee in the past 20 years to somehow justify Kanye’s presence no matter how ridiculous he acts…

...or cats acting like rap is a solely hyper masculine ultra-authentic representation of hood life that Kanye is out to ruin with his “dance music” and “anime” when the same people were bugging over Ma$e’s shiny suits ten years earlier. You’re about 10 years and three record labels too late.

— Sach Sep 16, 04:40 PM
HA!

— Thadd Clark Sep 16, 05:02 PM
“digging up every glammed out emcee in the past 20 years to somehow justify Kanye’s presence no matter how ridiculous he acts”

Since you and RHS both apparently mistook the Bambaataa reference, it had nothing to do with how Kanye acts. It was more on that Euro-pop, hipster-baiting, narrow definition of hip-hop tip…

So it’s Daft Punk instead of Kraftwerk.. who the hell cares.

Hip-hop isn’t supposed to be limited to any one area for its source material.

And wasnt an entire album co-produced by Jon Brion more hipster bait than anything he did this time around?

Is gfk hipster-baiting when he does an album with mf doom?

I wish the word hipster could just be banned… I may have to hold a funeral for it NAACP style.

— Rafi Sep 16, 05:59 PM
What brave soul will save this generation from the oppressive evils of history and context?!!!

Appeals for listeners to give themselves history/context should only be offensive to those who lack it and are too lazy or too defensive to do anything about it.

I share your distaste for the “greatest generation” WWII stuff, though.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 16, 08:49 PM
i’m startin’ to think eau doesn’t have that much fun listening to rap.

— T.R.E.Y. Sep 16, 10:04 PM
“cats acting like rap is a solely hyper masculine ultra-authentic representation of hood life “

thats just a stereotype of what you think the hood is, I was just saying that there needs to be more of a voice for those that aren’t drug dealers,pimps, or materialistic fashionistas.

— fredMS Sep 16, 10:11 PM
I love it when I manage to piss off both opposing camps with one comment. Score one for efficiency.

— Sach Sep 17, 11:20 AM
whats the difference between Kanye and the people they have on mtv for those sweet sixteen episodes? They are both divas who throw tantrums and hissyfits.

— asdadsasd Sep 17, 11:56 AM
Actually Sach there are 3 camps:

Kanye supporters, Kanye detractors, and Camp Sach.

Sach thinks “Graduation” is pretty good for contemporary standards (puts into context), but disapproves of others putting the album or Kanye’s image into context…

Sach writes post-after-post about the lack of quality in hip-hop, admits “Graduation” is a mainstream accomplishment, but doesn’t want to talk about it…

Sach wants his artists to stand for something, but only in the “good negro” sense of the word…

Sach doesn’t know why people are still talking about Kanye, while commenting on the people still talking about Kanye…

The problem isn’t Kanye, camps, or hip-hop, the problem is ___

— Thadd Clark Sep 17, 12:24 PM
Can’t leave posts by Kanye Cheerleaders alone, the game needs me.

— Sach Sep 17, 03:42 PM
“Kanye is not making brilliant music, but he is hittin’ the right market at the right time. Hipsters black & white all over the world will rep for him. If you want to applaud him for that, then that’s cool, but I just don’t see any real depth to what he’s doing. I see the vision though.”

probably the truest portion of the whole debate…

I lost track of all the “Important” points made here. rhs… youre a pseudo-bigot. If you had your way hip hop wouldnt have white listeners. Bottom line tho’ hip hop is way too divided to make everyone happy… not defending kanye. Everyones ideas of what real hip hop is, are inherently different. Im pretty open minded but my preference still stands for golden era and dope underground… the second bottome line is the bars for quality,tradition,aesthetic and genuiness have been dropped so low, or twisted somehow, that now any actor can get in this shit. Soulja boy included… rhs is probably “crankin that” as I write this. On an ending note however, take into consideration that the time frame and environment that nourished and created all the true hip hop in years past, has expired and vanished… now its just recycled glam-hop.

to quote a somewhat well known song, the title of wich I have forgotten,
by percee p, rhymefest, vakill and the molemen

“keep the fame, and just pass the mic to me.”

thats my creed. nuff said.

— cdub Sep 17, 06:22 PM
Behind my two favorite Hip-Hop collectives (Wu-Tang and P.E.), is my third fave – DeLa Soul.

I remember these words being slung here today as the same argument so-called Hip-Hop heads (actually they were rap fans in disguise) had against DeLa and their daisies.

You bitches are fucking cowards if you ask me. Motherfuckers are getting shot with fifty bullets and dragged from the backs of pickup trucks and you fags want to talk about rap music?!?

You should all enlist in the army or the marines and shoot a real gun, and have real guns shot at you. Then, when you come back to the states, if you come back to the states, in one piece and not looking like fucking Machine Man with the telescopic leg, you might could appreciate music that makes you want to try and touch the sky.

Come up from your momma’s basement and take the label off the container of orange juice that has your name on it.

Oh, and, Good Morning bitches.

— Billy X. Sunday Sep 17, 11:39 PM
What the fuck happened in this conversation

— R.H.S. Sep 18, 12:45 AM
^^^^

Apparently, reverse racism and foolish negroes’ inability to see that Kanye is their savior.

— eauhellzgnaw Sep 18, 03:14 AM
^^^Dog, unless you include a .jpeg every other sentence and hyperlink every word you type to a tangential url, I’ll never regard anything you write as profound or worthwhile.

— R.H.S. Sep 18, 07:55 AM
HA!

— Thadd Clark Sep 18, 09:46 AM
Man, the “Siniq” is obviously mad young (or at least his writing is), and has probably never crossed the pond. What’s with the “Euro” bashing (misguided patriotism)? And since when has “Euro” become synonymous with “feminine” or “ghey”?

You’re a wasteman.

Peace from East London.

— U MONRO Jan 19, 04:16 PM